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Kuldebar

Observed: Another Unoffical Patch inroduced issue...UHP & Proudspire Manor TNF - Hearthfire by goatk

Question

OK, similar to my last problem related to the Unofficial Patches, this one was a lot easier to figure out and I'm not going to bother posting it to Arthmoor based on his attitude in regards to MO and inability to process constructive observations...he simply says it's a conflict...(duh!) or Mod Organizer induced...
 
The issue is that modding is all about CONFLICTS...I choose THIS to overwrite THAT...but when the Unofficial Patch somehow keeps me from making a change that even the official game would allow...therein lies the problem.
 
So, here's the issue:
 
Somewhere along the line UHP added a type of cooking pot (XX10c205) to Proudspire Manor and even though I use a customized version of Proudspire...the pot still showed up in the kitchen, slightly offset and hanging in mid-air overlapping the cooking pot added/edited by Proudspire Manor TNF - Hearthfire by goatk.
 
40478-2-1376769383.jpg
 
Anytime I run into these type things, I reload from a previous save outside the cell in question and see if the issue is just a "glitch". Well, it was repeatable and using the console I could determine that the object came from UHP...bizarrely a formid which isn't in the official files...so added, not an edited existing object.
 
I could have disabled/markedfordelete in game, but I didn't want to do that until I knew what mod was adding it in...
 
So, my question:
 
If I have a mod that edits a cell, like a player home, why is one object (the cooking pot) from UHP insinuating itself into the game...I presume because it's a new item and not an edit?
 
Please tell me if I am wrong, but if the Unofficial Patches are adding new objects (that aren't in the official files) to cells that then get edited by another mod...doesn't that make modding just that much more difficult for everyone involved?
 
The way I see it...if a new cooking pot needed added to Proudspire, let people make and use a mod for THAT...don't roll such a thing into a patch that steam rolls the work of other modders...

Edited by Greg
Corrected bbcode

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Well, the wonderful thing about the Unofficial Patches is that they are extremely well documented.

 

In the UHP Version History page, I see this entries:

 

UHP v1.0.1

Placement/Layout/Ownership and other World Object Fixes

[*]The deleted cooking pot in Proudspire Manor has been restored.

UHP v1.0.3

Placement/Layout/Ownership and other World Object Fixes

[*]Fixed the placement of the cooking pot in Proudspire Manor so the player will not clip into the fireplace during the animation.

 

From these I gather that the UP team found there was supposed to be a cooking pot placed by HF in Proudspire Manor, and so if HF didn't have a FormID for it, there would need to be a new unique Form ID for it in the UHP plugin.

 

What I've noticed that there are loads of other mods which have included their own fixes for things that are later (or were previously) picked up by the UP team. Notable examples include major lighting mods such as ELFX. In many cases, the fix is just a re-positioning of an existing item, and you have to assume that if the mod makes a lot of changes to a cell, it would be better to let those placements "win" out in conflict management (and of course they would as they load after any of the Unofficial Patches.)

 

But then there's items missing from the original game/DLCS which are added by other mods as well as the UPs and you run into exactly the situation you're describing.

 

The UP team can't possibly predict or track every single mod that attempts the same fixes that the UPs do, so it's left to the user to decide how to handle the "conflict".

 

I'd assume since you're using a customized Proudspire, find the Form ID of the cooking pot placed by UHP, and disable it, TES5Edit UDR style, so you just see the one added by the custom Proudspire mod.

Edited by keithinhanoi
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I've been frustrated by this as well.  I feel that adding new things or even restoring things left out of the official game (particularly if their absence isn't creating any issues) is more appropriate for a mod like Cutting Room Floor.  As a modder it is extremely difficult to work around some of the new things added by the unofficial patches. 

 

I haven't personally seen it yet, but my understanding is that USKP goes so far as to add an entirely new room to the Ragged Flagon.  When I read about that in the change log, I immediately scrapped a mod I was working on at the time that would have renovated the Flagon and Thieves Guild Headquarters and extended the quest line by allowing the player to assume an actual leadership role.  It just wasn't worth trying to rework my mod around the USKP's "fix". 

 

While I wouldn't expect the USKP team to try to work around other mods or to avoid implementing a necessary fix due to compatibility issues, I do wish that they would weigh compatibility issues a bit more when adding in some of the more subjective and non-critical changes.  Adding a new reference to one of the player homes is guaranteed to create conflicts with a large number of users.  Was restoring a cooking pot worth the increased degree of conflict?  Was giving Vex a bed to sleep in really a bug that needed fixing?  And if so, was it really worth the cost of making it incredibly difficult for any other modder to re-imagine the Thieves Guild cells in a new or unique way?

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The USKP meat pie is also a good example, since that had to be patched for all needs mods... :/

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I think we have a member of the USKP team around here, Silent Spike?

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Really this is do to the lack of Bashed Patch development. You could just tag mods for certain things to make them compatible. I keep ignoring the patching section of my FNV guide because the Bashed Patch works so well if you set up the tags correctly.

 

So, any Python aces out there should get to work.  ::D:

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kryptopyr, on 21 Apr 2014 - 8:18 PM, said:

I've been frustrated by this as well.  I feel that adding new things or even restoring things left out of the official game (particularly if their absence isn't creating any issues) is more appropriate for a mod like Cutting Room Floor.  As a modder it is extremely difficult to work around some of the new things added by the unofficial patches. 

 

I haven't personally seen it yet, but my understanding is that USKP goes so far as to add an entirely new room to the Ragged Flagon.  When I read about that in the change log, I immediately scrapped a mod I was working on at the time that would have renovated the Flagon and Thieves Guild Headquarters and extended the quest line by allowing the player to assume an actual leadership role.  It just wasn't worth trying to rework my mod around the USKP's "fix". 

 

While I wouldn't expect the USKP team to try to work around other mods or to avoid implementing a necessary fix due to compatibility issues, I do wish that they would weigh compatibility issues a bit more when adding in some of the more subjective and non-critical changes.  Adding a new reference to one of the player homes is guaranteed to create conflicts with a large number of users.  Was restoring a cooking pot worth the increased degree of conflict?  Was giving Vex a bed to sleep in really a bug that needed fixing?  And if so, was it really worth the cost of making it incredibly difficult for any other modder to re-imagine the Thieves Guild cells in a new or unique way?

You state the nature of the challenges so well! It's a type of mission creep...when does a "patch" become a mod? To many people CCO Remade is definitely a "fix mod" and certainly Clothing and Clutter Fixes and Weapons and Armor Fixes - Remade as well...but most of us wouldn't call them patches I'd venture to guess.

 

The demarcation point between a patch and a mod as you have stated is what's needed here.

 

A patch should focus with laser-like intensity on fixing game-breaking bugs refrain as much as possible from taking on aesthetic, superficial design flaws that inherently lack objectively derived solutions. Talk about a whole can of unnecessary worms!

 

The USP/DGP vampire face issue I ran into dovetails into this whole topic, once again an aesthetic edit was made when the Unofficial Patch modified FaceGen files for NPC's as Arthmoor explained and to his credit pointed me in the right direction:

 

I already told you the files are in the USKP. That's where they belong because for the vanilla game Hert's facegen is not correct and had to be rebuilt...

 

...The USKP has a facegen file for her, which is intentional to fix bugs on the vanilla side. Dawnguard.bsa contains another, which will be loading after the USKP when your files are in the correct order. The UDGP *DOES NOT* contain a copy of her facegen data. We took that out after the reorganization changed the load ordering on the patches.You are going to need to go through your Data folder very carefully (your real one btw, not the voodoo one MO creates) and make sure you don't have a lurking copy of meshesactorscharacterFaceGenDataFaceGeomSkyrim.esm001367C.NIF or texturesactorscharacterFaceGenDataFaceTintSkyrim.esm001367C.dds sitting in there.Barring that, if this ends up being some kind of crazy thing MO did, I'm not gonna be a happy lizard.

Well, sure enough:

 

"C:Mod OrganizermodsUnofficial Skyrim Patchmeshesactorscharacterfacegendatafacegeomskyrim.esm0001367c.nif"

"C:Mod OrganizermodsUnofficial Skyrim Patchtexturesactorscharacterfacegendatafacetintskyrim.esm0001367c.dds"

 

Hiding those files restored the NPC skin tones.

 

So, I thought I'd be diplomatic and:

So, either the facegen texture edits by UKP are somehow incompatible with ENB lightingorThe facegen edits are simply bad.

 

Keep in mind there absolutely were no other mesh related files editing that NPC.

 

Arthmoor's final remark:

 

Considering they're obviously not bad, then whatever the ENB you're using is doing is broken. Incompatibilities with broken stuff really can't be expected to be our responsibility.

 

 

So, my belabored point in the rehash is that if no acceptance for owning a problem comes from the "patcher" side of the house, it's very unlikely that these types of changes will ever be reconsidered before implementation.

 

The USP Series becomes the tail that wags every dog in the pound instead of just being the floor of the kennel.

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What I've noticed that there are loads of other mods which have included their own fixes for things that are later (or were previously) picked up by the UP team. Notable examples include major lighting mods such as ELFX. In many cases, the fix is just a re-positioning of an existing item, and you have to assume that if the mod makes a lot of changes to a cell, it would be better to let those placements "win" out in conflict management (and of course they would as they load after any of the Unofficial Patches.)

Nice find on the patch note!

 

Yes, I ran Tes5Edit and deleted the UHP cooking pot addition, of course keeping a backup.

 

I usually do my best to ensure that a very limited number of mods (one being preferable) edit the same related records. And, if more than one mod does, they are compatible. But the unofficial patches are so broad in scope...that keeping abreast with compatibility becomes a herculean effort...and I'm not even a modder, just an end-user! It's worse in one sense that it's silly things like a single NPC's face or a cooking pot when compared to the time expended to fix and "unfix" it.

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The author of Campsites in Skyrim commented that Arthmoor's Cutting Room Floor restored Barleydark Farm but the location chosen for the buildings is on top of one of the campsites from this mod. The buildings were not originally there since they were never added by the Skyrim developers. It doesn't appear that there was much checking (which is admittedly difficult) to avoid these issues.

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Kelmych, on 24 May 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

The author of Campsites in Skyrim commented that Arthmoor's Cutting Room Floor restored Barleydark Farm but the location chosen for the buildings is on top of one of the campsites from this mod. The buildings were not originally there since they were never added by the Skyrim developers. It doesn't appear that there was much checking (which is admittedly difficult) to avoid these issues.

Playing advocate here, I'd say that's just one mod conflicting another. But when an "official" unofficial  "patch" starts adding things (ever how well intentioned)...like those Visual Cleansing Shrines in the Temple in Whiterun...I think it gets into a mission creep sort of area.

Edited by Kuldebar

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This would NOT be caused by BSAs loading incorrectly and is indeed correct Unofficial patch behavior. It's just a simple matter of the housing mod you mention not expecting the Unofficial patch to be adding a pot.

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Don't forget about Mirmulnir's voice. USKP added that.

That was added because the dragon had special subtitles, but used generic dragon roaring instead of the proper voice - USKP just adds proper voice to that, and (IMHO) in quite a convincing and seamless fashion. Through, then again, I never play without the USKP anyway, and I actually seriously thought Mirmulnir was voiced in the vanilla game.

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I've been frustrated by this as well.  I feel that adding new things or even restoring things left out of the official game (particularly if their absence isn't creating any issues) is more appropriate for a mod like Cutting Room Floor.  As a modder it is extremely difficult to work around some of the new things added by the unofficial patches. 

 

I haven't personally seen it yet, but my understanding is that USKP goes so far as to add an entirely new room to the Ragged Flagon.  When I read about that in the change log, I immediately scrapped a mod I was working on at the time that would have renovated the Flagon and Thieves Guild Headquarters and extended the quest line by allowing the player to assume an actual leadership role.  It just wasn't worth trying to rework my mod around the USKP's "fix". 

 

While I wouldn't expect the USKP team to try to work around other mods or to avoid implementing a necessary fix due to compatibility issues, I do wish that they would weigh compatibility issues a bit more when adding in some of the more subjective and non-critical changes.  Adding a new reference to one of the player homes is guaranteed to create conflicts with a large number of users.  Was restoring a cooking pot worth the increased degree of conflict?  Was giving Vex a bed to sleep in really a bug that needed fixing?  And if so, was it really worth the cost of making it incredibly difficult for any other modder to re-imagine the Thieves Guild cells in a new or unique way?

Damn the UPP for making Lady kryptopyr scrap such a mod, damn them! ... ahem... Diggin up "old" threads...

 

Reading Arthmoor's comments about MO make him sound very narrow-minded, imo. And I agree that going out of the way to re-add a simple cooking pot, fully knowing of the incredible amount of house mods out there, just seems very silly on UPP's part. I am grateful for all the bugfixes they've implemented and continue to implement but really, stick to bugfixing

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Arthmoor, like many other geek-types, I include myself in that crowd, don't always come off very well when it comes to conveying facts to real living breathing human beings. But, they more often than not know what they are talking about...they just often lack the patience of a saint when it comes to conveying that information to people who desire understanding.

 

Arthmoor was correct in regards to his questioning of my use of MO's BSA Extraction in the Vampire Fix techno-drama in another thread.

 

But being right earns no one the right to never be questioned, challenged or critiqued, that free pass crap is seemingly only reserved for powerful political leaders. Some of the decisions the Unofficial Patch Team have made hint at mission creep into areas best left to regular modders. Arthmoor himself has released mods (CRF is a good example) that would itself never be in a (more or less mandatory) patch but work just fine as an optional  mod.

 

The kitchen fix in this topic should never have been part of the patch. That's what housing mods are for, they add stuff Bethesda never did.

Edited by Kuldebar

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