Observed: Another Unoffical Patch inroduced issue...UHP & Proudspire Manor TNF - Hearthfire by goatk

[Kuldebar]

OK, similar to my last problem related to the Unofficial Patches, this one was a lot easier to figure out and I'm not going to bother posting it to Arthmoor based on his attitude in regards to MO and inability to process constructive observations...he simply says it's a conflict...(duh!) or Mod Organizer induced...
 
The issue is that modding is all about CONFLICTS...I choose THIS to overwrite THAT...but when the Unofficial Patch somehow keeps me from making a change that even the official game would allow...therein lies the problem.
 
So, here's the issue:
 
Somewhere along the line UHP added a type of cooking pot (XX10c205) to Proudspire Manor and even though I use a customized version of Proudspire...the pot still showed up in the kitchen, slightly offset and hanging in mid-air overlapping the cooking pot added/edited by Proudspire Manor TNF - Hearthfire by goatk.
 

 
Anytime I run into these type things, I reload from a previous save outside the cell in question and see if the issue is just a "glitch". Well, it was repeatable and using the console I could determine that the object came from UHP...bizarrely a formid which isn't in the official files...so added, not an edited existing object.
 
I could have disabled/markedfordelete in game, but I didn't want to do that until I knew what mod was adding it in...
 
So, my question:
 
If I have a mod that edits a cell, like a player home, why is one object (the cooking pot) from UHP insinuating itself into the game...I presume because it's a new item and not an edit?
 
Please tell me if I am wrong, but if the Unofficial Patches are adding new objects (that aren't in the official files) to cells that then get edited by another mod...doesn't that make modding just that much more difficult for everyone involved?
 
The way I see it...if a new cooking pot needed added to Proudspire, let people make and use a mod for THAT...don't roll such a thing into a patch that steam rolls the work of other modders...

Edited July 28, 2015 by Greg
Corrected bbcode

[CJ2311]

Well, I just had a look at the game files in the CK, and as it turns out, there is actually a "WarmHandsCrouchIdleMarker" marker in front of that cooking pot, as well as a "CookingSpitSm01". Both of which get enabled by the vanilla game when you purchase the kitchen upgrade.

Which means in the vanilla game, you'd end up with a fireplace, and a cooking spit missing its pot (which is what the USKP adds). Sounds like a legit fix for an ingame bug.

[Kuldebar]

CJ2311, on 27 May 2014 - 12:09 AM, said:

Which means in the vanilla game, you'd end up with a fireplace, and a cooking spit missing its pot (which is what the USKP adds). Sounds like a legit fix for an ingame bug.

Cooking spits and pots are separate objects, one can exist without the other, after all. :p Now if the pot was floating in the air with an invisible hook...sure, patch away.

 

But to me, it sounds like the house kitchen just needs a mod.

 

This is in the same league as adding smelters or grinder or tanning racks. Or Bethesda forgot doors in the College of Winterhold, let's add them into the patch!

 

One can say that something was intended, and thus it should be "fixed" or perhaps even better, one could say, it doesn't matter, we will mod it the way we want it, no universal patch needed. The difference is that the patch messes up all the mods downstream of it because the USkP is given privilege of priority and place, etc. So with such awesome prestige, the patch makers should always tread lightly as they cause ripples wherever they move.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Kuldebar

[z929669]

Well, I just had a look at the game files in the CK, and as it turns out, there is actually a "WarmHandsCrouchIdleMarker" marker in front of that cooking pot, as well as a "CookingSpitSm01". Both of which get enabled by the vanilla game when you purchase the kitchen upgrade.Which means in the vanilla game, you'd end up with a fireplace, and a cooking spit missing its pot (which is what the USKP adds). Sounds like a legit fix for an ingame bug.

Indeed: 

Hearthfires.esm: 0010C205 - cooking pot from vanilla game is deleted by HF. There is no reason apparent for this. No new item in its place. It's just... gone. UHFP restores this with a new form ID because one cannot edit a deleted reference without crashing the game. Consider that without Hearthfire installed, that cooking pot would still be there in Proudspire Manor. So any modders who are adding one are mistakenly inflicting a conflict on anyone who does not have HF.

Without this logic, I would still agree that Beth messed up and did not intend to remove the pot. True, this is a presumption, but I can think of no rationale why they would exclude it. However, the observation that HF 'bugs' out the pot seems like pretty strong reasoning that it was a mistake ...

[Aiyen]

From BSAs and straight into the frying pot! 

 

Sorry .. had to do it!

[z929669]

[Kuldebar]

So any modders who are adding one are mistakenly inflicting a conflict on anyone who does not have HF

 

 

It should be noted that the particular and popular housing mod by an exceptional mod author requires Hearthfires, so that point is moot.

 

 

The patch changed the environment for the sake of a relatively small discrepancy.

 

I really think kryptopyr stated it best:

 

While I wouldn't expect the USKP team to try to work around other mods or to avoid implementing a necessary fix due to compatibility issues, I do wish that they would weigh compatibility issues a bit more when adding in some of the more subjective and non-critical changes.  Adding a new reference to one of the player homes is guaranteed to create conflicts with a large number of users.  Was restoring a cooking pot worth the increased degree of conflict?  Was giving Vex a bed to sleep in really a bug that needed fixing?

 

[z929669]

I respectfully disagree with krypto (and you) on that one though. If a vanilla DLC imposes a bug on a conflicting record that did not exist previously, then that is a bug that should be fixed, IMO, however insignificant. Since Beth does not have sufficient quality control or investment in their released products required to fix this themselves, it is within the purview or the USP project to do this. Even for little things. STEP seeks to resolve all such issues outside of what the USP has fixed.

 

I think that mod authors should make the appropriate changes to accommodate properly, given the fix ... after all, mod authors should be finding this stuff and submitting bug reports to the USP team, right? Nobody is perfect, so it is totally understandable that these details are overlooked or even ignored, but in the end, we are talking about mod maintenance and mod authors' work affecting the work of other mod authors. The USP team does keep pretty detailed records, and if I were a mod author (which I am not qualified to be ATM) I might keep abreast with the USP and involve myself in their workflow.

 

OK, this is may be an unfair opinion ... I'll let it stand though and beat you all to the punch by declaring to myself that I shut my pie hole and not tell mod creators what is best for them!

[Kuldebar]

OK, I'll make my summation as well.

 

You make plenty sense, but it would make everyone's life easier if the official "Unofficial Patches" kept a tighter focus on substantive bugs and not innocuous ones.

 

After all, as kryptopyr reminds us, "adding new things or even restoring things left out of the official game (particularly if their absence isn't creating any issues) is more appropriate for a mod like Cutting Room Floor".

 

Aesthetic fixes are problematic in their nature. As much as I love Crafting Overhaul Remade, I wouldn't want it to be rolled up into the Unofficial Patches. There's choice involved, the tacit idea was that it's a no brainer in regards to whether or not to use the unofficial patches, but the more it creeps into highly discretionary, areas the more problems it will cause for its user base and the modders who also fix specific and desired things.