Thrive Movement

[TechAngel85]

I'm rather hesitant to believe this, as it flies in the face of a fundamental scientific law:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

And most of the people in the world thought the Earth was flat at one point in time until someone proved differently. Think outside the box as most of the great minds of our time did. If most of them were grounded by what the world said to be truth rather than thinking what can be true then we'd never have "scientific breakthroughs". The world of science as we know it would never change because no one is asking the hard questions and no one is finding out that what we thought we knew was actually wrong.

 

As a scientist I am disappointed by this post. It is mostly conspiracy theories. Magical thinking if you will, the same that caused Steve Jobs his life and that certain celebrities are using to get people not to vaccinate thier children thinking it causes autism. I am not sure what is meant by "mainstream media." I will say be skeptical about what you read on the Internet and carefully evaluate your sources of information. Sadly that these views are being expressed on the STEP web site which pro ports to use the scientific method to evaluate claims like whether memory managers work or INI settings do what is claimed. Thing like the n-machine violate the laws of physics, see link provided by DoubleYou. I would recommend that anyone believing this non-sense visit science blogs  where I use to hang out. Those posts are largely made by 'real scientists' and probably would not be consider 'main stream', whatever, that is suppose to mean. Another good place to start would be the James Randi Educational Foundation started by the Amazing Randi a magician by trade who made a living debunking paranormal and pseudoscientific claims.

Read reply above and my post above that. You (you as meaning scientific types, not you personally) are one of the main reasons I don't discuss this stuff often. (nothing personal towards you) Though not intended, you're basically making me feel like I'm crazy and a quack for expressing my views. It's okay to disagree but in the right way. Just because the "laws" say it is impossible doesn't mean they're impossible. (See articles below) I try not to be closed to new possibilities and don't  go off what is "known" and largely accepted which is what I meant by "drinking the kool-aid". The fact of the matter is that these devices work. The research and papers exist proving they work. We're humans and learning new things all the time. If we put ourselves in a box and say this can't be true because such as such scientific law says it can't be true then the Earth would still be flat and we'd still be the center of the universe with everything else orbiting around us. I'm not saying they're popular ideas, in fact, I said they weren't popular.  Here are some articles that defy physics:

https://www.livescience.com/16183-faster-speed-light-physics-breakthrough.html

https://www.theverge.com/2013/1/4/3834914/scientists-breach-absolute-zero-barrier

https://www.cracked.com/article_19668_6-scientific-discoveries-that-laugh-in-face-physics.html

https://phys.org/news166077673.html

 

What I mean by saying "mainstream media", I mean all news channels and major network news. Mainstream media is so slanted it's funny. We had to do a research paper and article on this in my college Current Events class. Most of us were shocked just how slanted the media was when you compared what the media were saying to what your research found to be true. I haven't paid any attention to mainstream media since. If there is something I want to know more about, I'll go find the answers myself.

 

As for this being on STEP, that is why it's in the Banter Inn. Free speech in this forum to talk about anything and everything you desire was long as you're not breaking the forum rules.

[DanimalTwo]

TechAngelI am not offended by anything you said or see it as a person attack.  I agree that the news media here in the USA is bad in the sense that they do not cover most news stories thoroughly. Science comes up with testable hypotheses that can be proven either true or false. Experiments are designed then to test them, and when sufficient facts exist they become theories until proven false. Science does not work upon belief. Nor am I mocking your beliefs. I do not believe in deities, but do not go out of my way to mock those who do.  I would recommend reading the following page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

I would also recommend doing a Google search on "thrive movement debunked". Scientists by their very nature are skeptics. We question everything even the existence of Gods, and if one cannot prove something we remain skeptical. Things that cannot be proven or dis-proven are beyond the realm of science. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, to which Carl Sagan responded "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".  What you are asking is to reject the laws of thermodynamics and claiming a government/industry conspiracy suppressing a the existence of perpetual motion machines. Rather then watch Thrive, I would recommend watching Cosmos, the sequel to Carl Sagan's original Cosmos hosted by Neil deGrasse Tyson, which was on the FOX network last night.

This is my last comment on the matter. I did not come here to discuss conspiracy theories or beliefs.

[EssArrBee]

What it comes down to is that you believe that a perpetual motion machine exists and can be built. I do not believe this, but I do believe one day machines will be built that can tap into latent spatial energies. The difference between what other claim about free energy and what I believe is that we will know what source that it is. Dark energy. It is biggest source of power in the known universe and not by a little, also as the universe expands there is more dark energy acquiring space in our universe. Eventually, it will be so strong that it will rip apart every particle and destroy the universe as we have come to know it. Except neutrinos, but that is another matter entirely. I guess I'm rambling about things that interest me now... and I only brought up the N-Machine because one of the original N-Machines DePalma used is still in existence and no one is allowed to use it. I always found that worrisome, but it could have just been my youthful curiosity. Other have built N-Machines and not been able to produce any power outputs at the level he did, but others have been able to produce reoccurring anomalies that can't account for ~20% of the power output. It is something that requires further testing, it does not prove anything, just calls out for more.

 

Mr. Gamble is in fact one of the members of those elite families. He could easily fund research in the millions of dollars a year and never make a dent on the Gamble family wealth. He could very easily hire some of the smartest people to build and test his torus theories and present data on anomalies that might present themselves, but he really hasn't done so. Not saying he is wrong, but he also shouldn't claim to be right. Using historical artifacts and coincidental evidence stands in the face of everything we try to obtain through testing.

[TechAngel85]

That is quite a list of fallacies. lol! I did read the debunked article and found it to be bias but even so they didn't outright deny any of what was in Thrive besides the free energy machines. The point wasn't Thrive anyway as I even find their web site a little out there (looks like their trying to build Utopia). The point was some of the message being presented of which 3/4 wasn't even over anything about science. I understand scientist's points of view and their nature well. I know they need the evidence sitting in their hands before believing most things in the science world. One scientist can make a discovery and the rest may not believe it until they have the scientific paper in their hands and/or reproduce the results themselves. That is all good and well because that is how science works; however, it's also causes new ideas and truths forever to grab on and many never do because so few scientist are willing to try to reproduce the results when the idea or theory is too far out there. In fact, I love listening to Michio Kaku simply because sometimes the guy is just out there where few others dare to go.

 

You really want to get out there in contradictions (and these are things no one on these forums knows about me): I'm gay. I'm a man of faith and believe in God (know that I'm going to Heaven when I die). I believe there are some truths in most religions. I also believe in alien life and some of these "conspiracies".  Now if that isn't a ball of contradictions bundled up into one person, I don't know what is!

[z929669]

As a scientist I am disappointed by this post. It is mostly conspiracy theories. Magical thinking if you will, the same that caused Steve Jobs his life and that certain celebrities are using to get people not to vaccinate thier children thinking it causes autism. I am not sure what is meant by "mainstream media." I will say be skeptical about what you read on the Internet and carefully evaluate your sources of information. Sadly that these views are being expressed on the STEP web site which pro ports to use the scientific method to evaluate claims like whether memory managers work or INI settings do what is claimed. Thing like the n-machine violate the laws of physics, see link provided by DoubleYou. I would recommend that anyone believing this non-sense visit science blogs  where I use to hang out. Those posts are largely made by 'real scientists' and probably would not be consider 'main stream', whatever, that is suppose to mean. Another good place to start would be the James Randi Educational Foundation started by the Amazing Randi a magician by trade who made a living debunking paranormal and pseudoscientific claims.

I am a scientist, too, but I don't think that posting this sort of thing under this particular forum is in any way a problem. That is what this forum is here for. It is in no way irresponsible or problematic. It is not the premise of this community. It is an idea and an ideology that spurs philosophical debate. Pick out the pieces that you don't buy and discredit them scientifically rather than attribute a generalized discredit to the overarching topic. Or simply ignore this thread and post something elsewhere in this forum about whatever strikes your fancy

 

I 'believe' in the laws of thermodynamics, and am skeptical about much of the content that is likely mixed into this topic, but there are undoubtedly some truths mixed in as well.

 

It is pretty obvious that the world's governments and entities in power control the media outlets and that there are a lot of things kept secret, so DO mistrust those in power, and DO remain skeptical about everything that is not supported by lots of data, but DON'T presume that all elements of all conspiracy theories are bogus ... that would be pretty unscientific. Open-mindedness is a fundamental rule of science, and nothing can ever be 'proven' but only 'disproven'.

 

I for one believe that life exists elsewhere in the universe, and it would seem silly to think otherwise, unless you are a creationist and you believe that the 6,000 year-old world is flat and we humans are not animals that evolved from amino acids in the primordial soup just like everything else on this planet. Skepticism is science. And I remain skeptical of many ideas purported here and of the propaganda that is spoon fed to society as well. I don't think that there is a grand scheme though ... just pockets of scheming that can seem grandiose if you think too hard about it.

 

Humans know virtually nothing about the universe and the "big picture", but it is healthy and respectable to consider anything and everything and attempt to disprove it all ... this is how scientific theories are born.

[TechAngel85]

I'd say at least 50% of the conspiracy theories make a fair bit of sense when looked at with an open and unbiased mind. If thing else I did learn one new thing from watching this film: Satyagraha

 

Gotta love Gandhi!

[Nearox]

Have to agree with DanimalTwo here... I'll try not to be offensive :P

 

In the academic world I have never met anyone who believes in this nor has there been anyone been able to succesfully claim evidence for such conspiracies. On the contrary, you will find that the vast majority of theories, empircal evidence and also in powerful people's biographies and memories that there is actually a major lack of any kind of authority or half-decently organized international organization and/or community. There are complete academic disciplines dedicated solely to the study of power in social, political or economic life. Yet throughout all those decades, not even the most critical and renowned doctors & professors (of which there are literraly thousands if not ten thousands in the Western world alone) have come up with a credible conspiracy theory. If there even were such an overarching secret organization which supposedly holds trillions of dollars according to said theories, there is extremely little chance they'd be able to hide it in this modern age. Power is measurable, power is visible and with increasing globalization has come increasing visibility of power.

 

I don't want to sound mean , but in university we were always laughing our asses off when some more 'common' folks from the city joined a discussion about global politics or financial structures etc. and started throwing around baseless theories of conspiracy.

 

As far as the 'evidence' of 'testimonials of miltiary officers' is concerned... Complete and utter ********. If this were true, it would have been in an academic journal and would be on all our newspwaper front pages. The closest to any kind of empiral evidence you will find on a shadow organization is probably the work of so-called [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory 'critical theorists] (note that wikipedia is pretty bad at explaining it), to which Marxism etc belongs and where the likes of Noam Chomsky have found their fundamentals in. Even Noam Chomsky would not claim that the billionaires of this world are an organized clique, because in truth, they are far from it.

 

There's a major difference between thinking outside the box (a so-called paradigm shift) - which is a nice endeavour - and providing actual evidence. Too many people claim a lot of things about governments when they have never read a decent book or a proper academic journal on governance. At least half of the citizens in most countries (and in particular in the US, no offense) have absolutely zero knowledge about the functioning of government, the state or international relations... and the huge constrains on any kind of power that arise out of human competition.

[TechAngel85]

Have to agree with DanimalTwo here... I'll try not to be offensive :PIn the academic world I have never met anyone who believes in this nor has there been anyone been able to succesfully claim evidence for such conspiracies. On the contrary, you will find that the vast majority of theories, empircal evidence and also in powerful people's biographies and memories that there is actually a major lack of any kind of authority or half-decently organized international organization and/or community. There are complete academic disciplines dedicated solely to the study of power in social, political or economic life. Yet throughout all those decades, not even the most critical and renowned doctors & professors (of which there are literraly thousands if not ten thousands in the Western world alone) have come up with a credible conspiracy theory. If there even were such an overarching secret organization which supposedly holds trillions of dollars according to said theories, there is extremely little chance they'd be able to hide it in this modern age. Power is measurable, power is visible and with increasing globalization has come increasing visibility of power.

I would say that you are probably right here. However, you can't erase the fact that many of these men have openly admitted to the goal of "One World Organization and Government and Currency". Which if you believe in the Christian Bible and have Revelations these things should scare the begeebees out of you. 

I don't want to sound mean , but in university we were always laughing our asses off when some more 'common' folks from the city joined a discussion about global politics or financial structures etc. and started throwing around baseless theories of conspiracy.As far as the 'evidence' of 'testimonials of miltiary officers' is concerned... Complete and utter ********. If this were true, it would have been in an academic journal and would be on all our newspwaper front pages. The closest to any kind of empiral evidence you will find on a shadow organization is probably the work of so-called [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory 'critical theorists] (note that wikipedia is pretty bad at explaining it), to which Marxism etc belongs and where the likes of Noam Chomsky have found their fundamentals in. Even Noam Chomsky would not claim that the billionaires of this world are an organized clique, because in truth, they are far from it.

Again, not to sound like a conspiracist, but the mainstream media (including papers) are controlled by the dollar that owns them. If that dollar doesn't want the news told it's not. If that dollar wants the news told in a slanted manner. It is. At any rate you can find the quotes from all sorts of people in power both in writing and on video (a few are in the Thrive video) saying that, "yes, there is an alien coverup"

[CJ2311]

I know I said I would stay away from this topic, but I have just one thing to say: Up until recently, people who claimed that "the government is watching you" were ridiculed and disregarded as conspiracy theorists, but I'm pretty sure by now everyone who's not living under a rock knows what the NSA was doing.

 

I don't care much about the Alien stories and similar stuff, all I'm saying is that you shouldn't claim to know everything or laugh at people who try and think outside the box instead of blindly believing everything that's on their favorite channel.

[EssArrBee]

I know I said I would stay away from this topic, but I have just one thing to say: Up until recently, people who claimed that "the government is watching you" were ridiculed and disregarded as conspiracy theorists, but I'm pretty sure by now everyone who's not living under a rock knows what the NSA was doing.I don't care much about the Alien stories and similar stuff, all I'm saying is that you shouldn't claim to know everything or laugh at people who try and think outside the box instead of blindly believing everything that's on their favorite channel.

Actually, people made a huge deal out of this when the patriot act was passed, but they weren't called conspiracy theorists, they were branded un-american and un-patriotic. That was as good as being branded a communist in the McCarthy days. We allowed our fears to get the best of us, and now that we see that fear as old and not needed, we are mad about the whole thing and realize how dumb we were being. We knew the whole time the gov't was spying on us, but we just didn't realize the extent to which is was happening.

 

I'd just like to point out that you would do much better using the alien tech to control the entire world and create an empire that would last a thousand years, then you would by suppressing it. Imagine the leap you would make in technology if you had that. Free energy tech that you had a monopoly on? Your profit margins would be astronomical and you could dominate the world energy market and in turn dominate the world economy. What kind of person that craves power would pass up the opportunity to do that?

 

I'd also like to let Alan Moore chime in here, "Yes, there is a conspiracy, indeed there are a great number of conspiracies, all tripping each other up… the main thing that I learned about conspiracy theories is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspriacy, or the grey aliens, or the twelve-foot reptiloids from another dimension that are in control, the truth is far more frightening; no-one is in control, the world is rudderless." That coming from a dude that believes in Qabalah.

[z929669]

... snip/

I'd also like to let Alan Moore chime in here, "Yes, there is a conspiracy, indeed there are a great number of conspiracies, all tripping each other up… the main thing that I learned about conspiracy theories is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspriacy, or the grey aliens, or the twelve-foot reptiloids from another dimension that are in control, the truth is far more frightening; no-one is in control, the world is rudderless." That coming from a dude that believes in Qabalah.

Yep, that is my position

[Nearox]

I would say that you are probably right here. However, you can't erase the fact that many of these men have openly admitted to the goal of "One World Organization and Government and Currency".

If they admit to it, it doesn't mean it exists. They could have all sorts of reasons for saying so. Again, if there were truth to be found there then their records could easily be used to write the most promimenent essay in decades... It would be more damaging than the NSA spying on citizens (which wasn't really any revelation, all governments have had massive spying programs since world war I). Still, I had a quick browse through the video. I stopped when they took Henry Kissinger's words completely out of context.And another example. One of the main sources of evidence appears to be that former Candian Defence Minister... He apparently recently said that "'a couple of their ladies dressed as nuns go into Las Vegas to shop and they weren’t detected"... He is now 90 years old and only began making his claims in 2005. There's an irrifutable possibility that age has taken its toll. Also you often see that when a person of power or prestige comes out with a secret, others of similar positions follow and claim the same thing. Haven't seen any reference to that (apart from the makers of the video). 

Which if you believe in the Christian Bible and have Revelations these things should scare the begeebees out of you.

I was forced to read the bible as a child and truly believed in it until the age of 12 or 13. When I was 20 or 21 I read the books of [https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins Richard Dawkins]. Haven't felt the need to read theology ever since. Also, linking the bible with world governance takeover sounds like an idea from Ron Paul or Tea Partiers... 

Again, not to sound like a conspiracist, but the mainstream media (including papers) are controlled by the dollar that owns them. If that dollar doesn't want the news told it's not. If that dollar wants the news told in a slanted manner. It is. At any rate you can find the quotes from all sorts of people in power both in writing and on video (a few are in the Thrive video) saying that, "yes, there is an alien coverup" <<paraphrased. Type into Google, "Government says aliens" and filter by video. There are a lot of videos of governments admitting that they are real and visiting and whatnot.

Again, just because a couple of people go on record doesn't mean it is is true. Because a defence minister says it, doesn't make it true.Now I'm not sayign aliens don't exists. I believe in extraterrestrial intelligent life because the probability for it to exist is substantial. I believe in conspiracies because they are there. After all, we are faced with public and private corruption every day (cartles, deals under the table etc.). But this idea that the entirity of top-level governance, executives and societal leaders are all strings pulled by an imaginiative organization of evil-doers and control-freaks...In reality it's a movement that become big in the states in the 1970s and 1980s, partly fuelled by right-wingers to instigate anti-government ideas among the population to further their own agenda of trickle-down economics and low taxes for the rich. The conspiracy movement is full of hypocrisy and is actually being (ab)used to increase the power of the very elite it wants to combat. Nowadays it is a multi-million, if not billion, dollar industry. There are countries like Greece where every every corner shop sells dozens of different conspiracy magazines. In the US, I guess the likes of Alex Jones are a prime example of this.I don't claim to know everything, CJ, but I cannot believe in this stuff especially facing highly dubious sources of evidence and no peer-review references either. Edited March 17, 2014 by Nearox

[DoubleYou]

If the tornado is an example of the taurus at work, then why do tornadoes disappear?

[TechAngel85]

If the tornado is an example of the taurus at work, then why do tornadoes disappear?

I asked myself the same thing. lol

 

@Nerox

Your points are fair enough. However, there are enough evidence and people in higher positions of governments and military saying it is true to peak my interest and make one wonder.

[MadWizard25]

I have never understood why people see conspiracy theories as any better than belief in a divine entity or force. To me its two sides of the same coin. Your putting your beliefs in context of 'control', be it either by small groups of elite or some supernatural entity. Life cant be that simple, you just need to look at the current theories in physics, or even the structure of a cell to understand how complex life and reality is. Conspiracy theories are a reductionist argument; they compress the complex to simple, and ignore emergent properties and chaos. Not only that, but since these are technically social phenomenon, it completely bypasses the fact that there are vast arrays of people, countries, nations, corporations, ethnicities, institutes, all with competing interests. Think globally, orchestrating something on this scale is virtually impossible. Sheer number of events will outpace any group. Its simply one big chaotic muddle. And its beautiful.

 

Thats not to say all conspiracy theories are wrong, there are certainly grains of truth. One good example is cold fusion. A child of one of these free energy ideas, it was discredited for quite some time. Recently however, enough research has been done to change the paradigm. I believe there is now active interest from DARPA to once again look into CF. That to me is a great example refuting vested interests like big oil conspiring with US gvmt. Countries want cheap or free energy for many reasons, so i highly doubt some tech is being deliberately held back. As to the rest of the free energy bunch, there are excellent reasons they have not been given much time. Under current scientific philosophy, none have really held up to the quality controls. They have run afoul of peer review, bad methodology, extremely dodgy statistics, and so forth. They are ignored because our one avenue of objective (or as close to) view has found them wanting. And I have to say, quoting videos, and news articles as 'proof' just aint good enough. If you have access to actual scientific literature, such as peer reviewed journals, you would see that quite a bit of work has been done in a scientifically valid way regarding these free energy ideas, and free energy has not held up, at all.

 

Another point is the use of bias in this conversation. You cannot be un-biased. Even a scientist views research through a subjective lense, which is why we need to use methods such as falsification, statistical analysis, confidence, peer review, reproducibility to reduce bias. No other approach does this. We divorce as much as possible the subjective from the objective through techniques that are as removed from human bias as possible (such as the use of statistics). People have big issues with this, and usually end of unable to counter argue, and end up with blurbs such as; "I cant speak to you sciency types". Sorry to say but unless you come up with something even more objective you will have to talk on our level. Otherwise its not a debate, its a pissing in the wind contest, you could say whatever you want. This is one of my biggest frustrations. We dont suddenly turn off bias reduction when it comes to special tech or ideas.

 

And if your counter argument is that bias reduction doesnt matter then all i can say is how do you acknowledge the world you live in at the moment, or understand it? So much of our society is built upon scientific approach, we have achieved so much using these tenants, so much so in the past 200 years that I personally find it hard that people can just switch this off, and believe that suddenly these principles dont apply.

 

Of course this all depends on if you actually believe in philosophy of science and the methodology it entails. If you dont then Im not sure how you can even begin to discuss any type of research even in free energy, since its intimately entwined with research. Its like some sort of 1984 double speak/ think if you attempt this. Cant acknowledge one and ignore the other.

Edited March 17, 2014 by MadWizard25