DynDOLOD 3.00 Alpha 190

[KaktuZHD]

Hi guys! I've generated LOD for skyrim, but trees look very bad in a far distance. When I come closer it become good quality, how can I do good quality for a log distance ? I used Happy little trees mod and Veydogolt trees which have Ultra 3d trees LOD.

 

My DynDOLOD settings which I used to generate LOD

Edited August 26, 2022 by KaktuZHD

[sheson]

  On 8/26/2022 at 1:58 PM, KaktuZHD said:

Hi guys! I've generated LOD for skyrim, but trees look very bad in a far distance. When I come closer it become good quality, how can I do good quality for a log distance ? I used Happy little trees mod and Veydogolt trees which have Ultra 3d trees LOD.

 

My DynDOLOD settings which I used to generate LOD

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Read the first post which log and debug log to upload when making posts.

The settings show you opted to use Billboard4 for the first LOD Level 4 for the "tree" mesh mask rule. Read https://dyndolod.info/Help/Ultra-Tree-LOD to learn how to generate LOD for trees with 3D tree LOD models and its requirements, e.g. download/create 3D tree LOD models and set LOD Level 4 to Level0 in order to use the 3D tree LOD models.

[z929669]

  On 8/26/2022 at 10:27 AM, sheson said:

Only one session with a threshold that is not anywhere near 128 not having an affect on the texture on the object LOD atlas is required.

The texture in question is one of birch03_c.dds, birch03g_c.dds or birch03y_c.dds?

How do you check/compare the generated object LOD atlas texture and its mipmaps?

Normal map textures have no effect on diffuse alpha. The 4th channel of normal map textures is typically used for the specular map.

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Texture in question are birch03_c.dds and birch03_n.dds.

Looking at texture in DynDOLOD output mod (not as many aspens as expected in the atlas) ..\textures\DynDOLOD\LOD (10 mip levels)

 

A couple things to note about Aspens Ablaze main mod:

• It uses a diffuse with alpha opacity that seems to have custom mips to help achieve its look (4k)
• It uses a custom normal likewise, and the normal also uses alpha opacity (rather than specularity in the alpha) (also 4k)
• The NiAlphaProperty of all crown nodes is 128
• We are testing with 'Autumnal' version (v2.35, no thickets or LOD from main mod)

Testing LOD versions:

1. Reduced poly crowns with same crown NIF parameters as full (v0.1) - logs 0.1
2. Reduced poly crowns (as in #1) with NiAlphaProperty=224 (v0.1) - logs 0.1-224
3. Reduced poly crowns (as in #1) with same crown NIF parameters as full and pointing to 256 px LOD textures (diffuse just resized, normal with alpha romoved and then resized (v0.2 ) - logs 0.2
4. Reduced poly crowns (as in #1) with NiAlphaProperty=224 and pointing to 256 px LOD textures (diffuse just resized, normal with alpha romoved and then resized (v0.2 ) - logs 0.2-224

Screens in same order as above:

I think this demonstrates that lower texture resolution textures used in the crown LOD respond better to alpha scaling but adjustment of NiAlphaProperty threshold in the crown doesn't seem to have any impact. I doubt that the normal alpha plays a role. Textures are available in the download links above

 

EDIT: Interestingly, the BTO NIF properties for aspens are applied to non-aspen trees on the BTO (pines here), and they are really different in the full/LOD models:

 

[sheson]

  On 8/26/2022 at 4:02 PM, z929669 said:

A couple things to note about Aspens Ablaze main mod:

• It uses a diffuse with alpha opacity that seems to have custom mips to help achieve its look (4k)
• It uses a custom normal likewise, and the normal also uses alpha opacity (rather than specularity in the alpha) (also 4k)
• The NiAlphaProperty of all crown nodes is 128
• We are testing with 'Autumnal' version (v2.35, no thickets or LOD from main mod)

Testing LOD versions:

1. Reduced poly crowns with same crown NIF parameters as full (v0.1) - logs 0.1
2. Reduced poly crowns (as in #1) with NiAlphaProperty=224 (v0.1) - logs 0.1-224
3. Reduced poly crowns (as in #1) with same crown NIF parameters as full and pointing to 256 px LOD textures (diffuse just resized, normal with alpha romoved and then resized (v0.2 ) - logs 0.2
4. Reduced poly crowns (as in #1) with NiAlphaProperty=224 and pointing to 256 px LOD textures (diffuse just resized, normal with alpha romoved and then resized (v0.2 ) - logs 0.2-224

Screens in same order as above:

I think this demonstrates that lower texture resolution textures used in the crown LOD respond better to alpha scaling but adjustment of NiAlphaProperty threshold in the crown doesn't seem to have any impact. I doubt that the normal alpha plays a role. Textures are available in the download links above

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There are differences between image #1 (left) and #2 and #3? #3 and #4 (right) seem close. Could the order be reversed? 

Which screenshot or LOD version is the one where you believe LOD matches the full trees best? Not what seems to look best in a still, what has the least noticeable switch between LOD / full model?

When you say diffuse just resize, how? Upload it. Normal map texture does not matter.

[z929669]

  On 8/26/2022 at 4:15 PM, sheson said:

There are differences between image #1 (left) and #2 and #3? #3 and #4 (right) seem close. Could the order be reversed? 

Which screenshot or LOD version is the one where you believe LOD matches the full trees best? Not what seems to look best in a still, what has the least noticeable switch between LOD / full model?

When you say diffuse just resize, how? Upload it. Normal map texture does not matter.

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Images are correct order. The differences you note in the screen are subtle (Obsidian Mountain Fogs can impact brightness in some places). In game, they are more apparent. Changing NiAlphaProperty in the second test did result in a small change to brightness, but alpha was still quite 'blotchy' in game. no apparent increase in transparency. Reduced resolution does increase transparency marginally, but NiAlphaProperty change in the final test had no visible impact at all.

Best transitions and LOD matching full is in last two screens, since last two tests use the 256 px textures (first two use 4K from main mod). The main issue is color-bleeding in branches/leaves due to alpha scaling. Full trees get slightly thinner in loaded cells as distance increases, and the same is true in LOD4 as distance increases.

I'm currently testing with diffuse at 128 px res. Will share result when finished.

Main mod textures

Reduced textures (open DDS, resize 4k to 256 in Ps, save using NVIDIA TT) - these LOD mod variants are also available for download from Nexus (linked previously)

[z929669]

Updated both previous posts

[z929669]

Just finished testing with 128k diffuse/normals resized with mipmaps @127 alpha test from original full textures used in AA main mod. Hopefully, you can see that the alpha transparency is best when the source textures used by DynDOLOD for these trees is 128:

I;m not showing changes in NiAlphaProperty, since it doesn't really have any impact. All are default AA values of 128 as full crowns.

4k  >>  256  >>  128

PS: You can see where full trees transition to LOD when switching between these screens. Full is obviously at bottom of screen nearest the PC. Most apparent alpha diff in LOD are those trees at lower right, which are obviously LOD trees.

---

For reference, this is an earlier screen I captured using the main mod AA textures (Autumnal Variety w/bigger treeaspen01-02) including normal with alpha opacity). Notice how the alpha is much too thick in LOD for these trees in comparison to lower res. I think this is apparent in the screens.

 

All mesh rules used for all testing as follows:

[Skyrim aspensablazeesp]
LODGen1=cceejsse001-hstead.esm;08000BC2,Level0,Level1,Billboard4,Level2,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Aspens Ablaze High Preset
LODGen2=cceejsse001-hstead.esm;08000BEB,Level0,Level1,Billboard4,Level2,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Aspens Ablaze High Preset
LODGen3=cceejsse001-hstead.esm;08000B90,Level0,Level1,Billboard4,Level2,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Aspens Ablaze High Preset
LODGen4=cceejsse001-hstead.esm;08000BD5,Level0,Level1,Billboard4,Level2,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Aspens Ablaze High Preset
LODGen5=treeaspen05,Level0,None,None,None,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Aspens Ablaze High Preset
LODGen6=treeaspen06,Level0,None,None,None,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Aspens Ablaze High Preset
LODGen7=treeaspen07,Level0,None,None,None,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Aspens Ablaze High Preset
LODGen8=treeaspen08,Level0,None,None,None,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Aspens Ablaze High Preset
LODGen9=treeaspen09,Level0,None,None,None,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Aspens Ablaze High Preset
LODGen10=treeaspen,Level0,Level1,Billboard4,Level2,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Aspens Ablaze High Preset

 

[Mephitic]

Asking here mostly 'cause I'm a lazy and impatient bastid so here goes...
As you can see from this image the NGIO-generated cached grass LOD has a lighter tint than the nearer grass.

The notes I can find about this say

  Quote

In case the grass LOD brightness or color seems off (it might depend on weathers or ENB settings), try different Direct/Ambient settings for grass LOD billboards in TexGen. In addition or alternatively change the GrassBrightnessTop* and GrassBrightnessBottom* settings in ..\DynDOLOD\Edit Scripts\DynDOLOD\DynDOLOD_SSE.ini - those settings help if the color tone is off. Especially the image based lighting effect from ENB has a big impact on the brightness and color tone of the grass LOD.

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I will guess that the DynDOLOD_SSE.ini settings are the way to go here, but how much to change them and in what direction?

These are my current settings (I believe they're default):

; grass LOD brightness multipliers
GrassBrightnessTopR=0.400
GrassBrightnessTopG=0.445
GrassBrightnessTopB=0.450
; make bottom darker to fake shadowing
GrassBrightnessBottomR=0.200
GrassBrightnessBottomG=0.223
GrassBrightnessBottomB=0.225

I know I can experiment with these but that is a tedious and time-consuming endeavor.
I'm hoping that you'll have a bit of insight to shortcut that process.

Other perhaps relevant info - Vivid Weathers, ENB .475 - Silent Horizons preset, Direct/Ambient settings for grass LOD billboards in TexGen are at default 160/25.

Thank you in advance for any advice you can offer.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Mephitic

[z929669]

  On 8/26/2022 at 5:14 PM, Mephitic said:

Asking here mostly 'cause I'm a lazy and impatient bastid so here goes...
As you can see from this image the NGIO-generated cached grass LOD has a lighter tint than the nearer grass.

The notes I can find about this say

I will guess that the DynDOLOD_SSE.ini settings are the way to go here, but how much to change them and in what direction?

These are my current settings (I believe they're default):

; grass LOD brightness multipliers
GrassBrightnessTopR=0.400
GrassBrightnessTopG=0.445
GrassBrightnessTopB=0.450
; make bottom darker to fake shadowing
GrassBrightnessBottomR=0.200
GrassBrightnessBottomG=0.223
GrassBrightnessBottomB=0.225

I know I can experiment with these but that is a tedious and time-consuming endeavor.
I'm hoping that you'll have a bit of insight to shortcut that process.

Other perhaps relevant info - Vivid Weathers, ENB .475 - Silent Horizons preset, Direct/Ambient settings for grass LOD billboards in TexGen are at default 160/25.

Thank you in advance for any advice you can offer.

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Have a look at this post for a fairly fool-proof way to match grass LOD to full with almost any grass. The tint settings are mostly for edge cases or for non-linear ENB shader effects.

[Mephitic]

  On 8/26/2022 at 5:37 PM, z929669 said:

Have a look at this post for a fairly fool-proof way to match grass LOD to full with almost any grass. The tint settings are mostly for edge cases or for non-linear ENB shader effects.

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Will do, and thank you very much for your help.

[sheson]

  On 8/26/2022 at 4:45 PM, z929669 said:

Images are correct order. The differences you note in the screen are subtle (Obsidian Mountain Fogs can impact brightness in some places). In game, they are more apparent. Changing NiAlphaProperty in the second test did result in a small change to brightness, but alpha was still quite 'blotchy' in game. no apparent increase in transparency. Reduced resolution does increase transparency marginally, but NiAlphaProperty change in the final test had no visible impact at all.

Best transitions and LOD matching full is in last two screens, since last two tests use the 256 px textures (first two use 4K from main mod). The main issue is color-bleeding in branches/leaves due to alpha scaling. Full trees get slightly thinner in loaded cells as distance increases, and the same is true in LOD4 as distance increases.

I'm currently testing with diffuse at 128 px res. Will share result when finished.

Main mod textures

Reduced textures (open DDS, resize 4k to 256 in Ps, save using NVIDIA TT) - these LOD mod variants are also available for download from Nexus (linked previously)

Expand  

There is clearly a visual difference between the tree LOD of screenshot #1 and #2 which were made the 4k source textures if I am not mistaken. If the only change is the alpha threshold, then this is the result of the increased transparency. DoubleYou reported "no observable difference" however.

The screenshots #3 and #4 made with the resized texture seem to be more or less the same, despite the change in the threshold. DoubleYou reported "way too thin" for the 224 threshold with 256 pixel texture, which would be the expected result when increasing the threshold.

I do not know what blotchy alpha is supposed to look like.

Wasn't the goal to have less transparency so the leaves appear to be thicker when further away?

"Bleeding" means neighborly pixels affect each other. Which happens when shrinking. The alpha information should not cause bleeding of color, unless you mean if something is more transparent, something behind it shines through.

[z929669]

  On 8/26/2022 at 6:05 PM, sheson said:

There is clearly a visual difference between the tree LOD of screenshot #1 and #2 which were made the 4k source textures if I am not mistaken. If the only change is the alpha threshold, then this is the result of the increased transparency. DoubleYou reported "no observable difference" however.

The screenshots #3 and #4 made with the resized texture seem to be more or less the same, despite the change in the threshold. DoubleYou reported "way too thin" for the 224 threshold with 256 pixel texture, which would be the expected result when increasing the threshold.

I do not know what blotchy alpha is supposed to look like.

Wasn't the goal to have less transparency so the leaves appear to be thicker when further away?

"Bleeding" means neighborly pixels affect each other. Which happens when shrinking. The alpha information should not cause bleeding of color, unless you mean if something is more transparent, something behind it shines through.

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I think the difference between 1 and 2 is a fluke maybe caused by the fogs but could possibly be due to some marginal effect of increasing NiAlphaProperty; however, since there is no change freom 3 to 4, I think its not NiAlphaProperty increase. Changes to NiAlphaProperty are not apparent in my testing. DoubleYou was testing some things in part based on a texture he had created with his own custom mips, and given he hasn't presented evidence to support, we can't really say that with a 256 resolution, increasing NiAlphaProperty from 128 to 224 has any impact. Clearly, from my evidence it does not (unless we question my evidence, which I do not).

Did you find anything in the LOGs to illuminate?

Blotchy alpha is my way of saying it's too think and washed out as demonstrated by the screens. The issue is that branches in LOD are too thick, aned making them thinner can only be done by decreasing AlphaFactor in DynDOLOD_SSE.ini to 0.125, or by reducing the texture resolution of the LOD diffuse. I think this is because the the change between mips with lower base resolution is more apparent. Regardless, changing NiAlphaProperty just isn't working ... I have taken that advice many times in the past, and it doesn't work with other trees either in my XP. Kojak747 had the same XP when we work working on his Scott pine. he finally resolve with texture changes. NiAlphaProperty had no impact. This was long ago, so I'm wondering if this behavior is just not working as expected.

As you mentioned, using AlphaFactor is not viable for several reasons, and using custom LOD textures isn't either. I'd like to figure out why NiAlphaProperty isn't working as expected.

My results should be entirely repeatable if you try yourself. I've linked to all files I used, and I put the 128k textures on the AA DynDOLOD Nexus page as well.

[sheson]

  On 8/26/2022 at 6:27 PM, z929669 said:

I think the difference between 1 and 2 is a fluke maybe caused by the fogs but could possibly be due to some marginal effect of increasing NiAlphaProperty; however, since there is no change freom 3 to 4, I think its not NiAlphaProperty increase. Changes to NiAlphaProperty are not apparent in my testing. DoubleYou was testing some things in part based on a texture he had created with his own custom mips, and given he hasn't presented evidence to support, we can't really say that with a 256 resolution, increasing NiAlphaProperty from 128 to 224 has any impact. Clearly, from my evidence it does not (unless we question my evidence, which I do not).

Did you find anything in the LOGs to illuminate?

Blotchy alpha is my way of saying it's too think and washed out as demonstrated by the screens. The issue is that branches in LOD are too thick, aned making them thinner can only be done by decreasing AlphaFactor in DynDOLOD_SSE.ini to 0.125, or by reducing the texture resolution of the LOD diffuse. I think this is because the the change between mips with lower base resolution is more apparent. Regardless, changing NiAlphaProperty just isn't working ... I have taken that advice many times in the past, and it doesn't work with other trees either in my XP. Kojak747 had the same XP when we work working on his Scott pine. he finally resolve with texture changes. NiAlphaProperty had no impact. This was long ago, so I'm wondering if this behavior is just not working as expected.

As you mentioned, using AlphaFactor is not viable for several reasons, and using custom LOD textures isn't either. I'd like to figure out why NiAlphaProperty isn't working as expected.

My results should be entirely repeatable if you try yourself. I've linked to all files I used, and I put the 128k textures on the AA DynDOLOD Nexus page as well.

Expand  

The screenshots only show if there is a difference or not. I can not tell what is supposed to match better or look better. I have no idea what screenshots are supposed to show "washed out" textures. How are they washed out? Do they loose color?

What I can say is this: screenshot #1 and #2 have clearly different tree LOD. Can fog only affect tree LOD? So far the screenshots and the different statements are just more confusing to me than being helpful. In part because I probably need to see and move the camera in game myself.

Lets forget for a moment how things look in the game and really check the textures.

Get a feel how changing the threshold from 128 to 244 actually affects how the model/leaves looks in NifSkope.

Then compare the textures added to the texture atlas. As long as you do not change the threshold of all 3D tree LOD models, the diffuse texture should be added to the object LOD atlas texture at least twice, once for the 128 threshold and once for the 224 for example. You can find their pixel coordinates in..\DynDOLOD\Edit Scripts\Export\LODGen_SSE_ObjectAtlasMap_Tamriel.txt. The threshold is divided by 16 and part of the first column in case it is not the default of 128.  So there are two rows for the texture with their different coordinates on the atlas

textures\mx\birch03_c.dds,textures\mx\birch03_n.dds ...
textures\mx\birch03_c.dds,textures\mx\birch03_n.dds=14 ...

If you use an image program to cut those textures out of the atlas you can then directly compare their alpha channels side by side or by switching back and forth to see if they are different and by how much.

I would be interested in directly;y comparing the actual texture the 4k input to 256 input and if 4k has no change or just a very small change in the alpha channel. Use pipette to get the alpha value of a pixel.

If changing the alpha threshold has a stronger effect on smaller source textures, then it means a step might be missing in the processes or maybe something is done on the wrong order.

[z929669]

  On 8/26/2022 at 6:54 PM, sheson said:

The screenshots only show if there is a difference or not. I can not tell what is supposed to match better or look better. I have no idea what screenshots are supposed to show "washed out" textures. How are they washed out? Do they loose color?

What I can say is this: screenshot #1 and #2 have clearly different tree LOD. Can fog only affect tree LOD? So far the screenshots and the different statements are just more confusing to me than being helpful. In part because I probably need to see and move the camera in game myself.

Lets forget for a moment how things look in the game and really check the textures.

Get a feel how changing the threshold from 128 to 244 actually affects how the model/leaves looks in NifSkope.

Then compare the textures added to the texture atlas. As long as you do not change the threshold of all 3D tree LOD models, the diffuse texture should be added to the object LOD atlas texture at least twice, once for the 128 threshold and once for the 224 for example. You can find their pixel coordinates in..\DynDOLOD\Edit Scripts\Export\LODGen_SSE_ObjectAtlasMap_Tamriel.txt. The threshold is divided by 16 and part of the first column in case it is not the default of 128.  So there are two rows for the texture with their different coordinates on the atlas

textures\mx\birch03_c.dds,textures\mx\birch03_n.dds ...
textures\mx\birch03_c.dds,textures\mx\birch03_n.dds=14 ...

If you use an image program to cut those textures out of the atlas you can then directly compare their alpha channels side by side or by switching back and forth to see if they are different and by how much.

I would be interested in directly;y comparing the actual texture the 4k input to 256 input and if 4k has no change or just a very small change in the alpha channel. Use pipette to get the alpha value of a pixel.

If changing the alpha threshold has a stronger effect on smaller source textures, then it means a step might be missing in the processes or maybe something is done on the wrong order.

Expand  

Great. I will take a look just as you say rather than continue with the logs/screens route. This approach is more certain.

[KaktuZHD]

Is It possible to increase LOD distance? I mean when I came closer to the trees - it became full quality, so is it possible to do it in a far distance ? I've already generated LOD. Maybe any settings ?

Edited August 26, 2022 by KaktuZHD