GUIDE [WIP] DDSopt & Texture Overhauls

[z929669]

Discussion thread:
DDSopt Guide by STEP
Wiki Link

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GET DDSopt:
Github Pre-release versions
Official Nexus versions (select pre-release update 4)

[Kelmych]

On your third question I give you a little bit of information, but not how to do all you want to do. Hopefully someone with a lot more experience with meshes can provide more and/or better answers. If you click on an item in the game using console mode an 8 digit hex number is shown. I clicked on a snow covered rock near Helgen and the number was 0008f51a. That number is called the ref id. It is the identifier for that particular rock. Now you need to get the form id (also called base id). This is the identifier of the base object that was used to make the object I clicked. To get this you open TES5Edit, select only the Bethesda esm files, and wait until it finishes. I entered "0008f51a" in the filter.and hit return. In the right window it said RockM01Snow [sTAT:0002695A]. "0002695A" is the form id. Now you can go into the creation kit, select data, double click skyrim.esm and make it active. enter the form id in the filter window and click *All at the bottom of the windows on the left. In the right part of the window you will see RockM01Snow and under Model it says (unsurprisingly) this uses the mesh \landscape\rocks\rockM01.nif. This is a nif in Skyrim - Meshes.bsa.

 

I'm not sure how to now get the right texture(s) that the mesh uses other than looking in the texture folder for textures with similar names. There are tools for working with meshes but I don't know how to use them.

 

As you can see, it is not a simple process (to the best of my knowledge).

[PCG4m3r]

On your third question I give you a little bit of information' date=' but not how to do all you want to do. Hopefully someone with a lot more experience with meshes can provide more and/or better answers. If you click on an item in the game using console mode an 8 digit hex number is shown. I clicked on a snow covered rock near Helgen and the number was 0008f51a. That number is called the ref id. It is the identifier for that particular rock. Now you need to get the form id (also called base id). This is the identifier of the base object that was used to make the object I clicked. To get this you open TES5Edit, select only the Bethesda esm files, and wait until it finishes. I entered "0008f51a" in the filter.and hit return. In the right window it said RockM01Snow [sTAT:0002695A']. "0002695A" is the form id. Now you can go into the creation kit, select data, double click skyrim.esm and make it active. enter the form id in the filter window and click *All at the bottom of the windows on the left. In the right part of the window you will see RockM01Snow and under Model it says (unsurprisingly) this uses the mesh \landscape\rocks\rockM01.nif. This is a nif in Skyrim - Meshes.bsa.

 

I'm not sure how to now get the right texture(s) that the mesh uses other than looking in the texture folder for textures with similar names. There are tools for working with meshes but I don't know how to use them.

 

As you can see, it is not a simple process (to the best of my knowledge).

Very good info Kemlych. I still have a lot to learn with regard to CK and TES5Edit, but things like this help me get more comfortable with those tools. You're right, it's not a simple process, but I certainly appreciate any knowledge and I'm sure it will be useful for me

 

I can reciprocate a little. I know how to identify what texture file a mesh uses, but only using NifSkope. An in-game solution would be ideal, but alas I doubt that will ever be possible.

 

Based on your \landscape\rocks\rockM01.nif example, if you open that file in NifSkope, you can click on the mesh in the viewport and the relevant "NiTriShape" will be highlighted in the Block List. Or you can just select the "NiTriShape" if you know what it is (in this case it's the only one). From there, you can expand down to the "BSShaderTextureSet" under "BSLightingShaderProperty". Then at the bottom, under Block Details, you can expand "Textures" and in this case you will see it's associated with \textures\lanscape\mountains\MountainSlab02.dds and \textures\lanscape\mountains\MountainSlab02_N.dds.

[Kelmych]

I've been trying to avoid learning Nifscope, hoping that there was a simpler tool that could tell me just the texture names.

 

I chose an example that was a Skyrim.esm owned object. It is similar but a little harder for objects that mods create.

[z929669]

On your third question I give you a little bit of information' date=' but not how to do all you want to do. Hopefully someone with a lot more experience with meshes can provide more and/or better answers. If you click on an item in the game using console mode an 8 digit hex number is shown. I clicked on a snow covered rock near Helgen and the number was 0008f51a. That number is called the ref id. It is the identifier for that particular rock. Now you need to get the form id (also called base id). This is the identifier of the base object that was used to make the object I clicked. To get this you open TES5Edit, select only the Bethesda esm files, and wait until it finishes. I entered "0008f51a" in the filter.and hit return. In the right window it said RockM01Snow [sTAT:0002695A']. "0002695A" is the form id. Now you can go into the creation kit, select data, double click skyrim.esm and make it active. enter the form id in the filter window and click *All at the bottom of the windows on the left. In the right part of the window you will see RockM01Snow and under Model it says (unsurprisingly) this uses the mesh \landscape\rocks\rockM01.nif. This is a nif in Skyrim - Meshes.bsa.

 

I'm not sure how to now get the right texture(s) that the mesh uses other than looking in the texture folder for textures with similar names. There are tools for working with meshes but I don't know how to use them.

 

As you can see, it is not a simple process (to the best of my knowledge).

You could go into Nifscope to look at the references in the NIFs

EDIT: don't mind me, I should have read past this post

[z929669]

On your third question I give you a little bit of information' date=' but not how to do all you want to do. Hopefully someone with a lot more experience with meshes can provide more and/or better answers. If you click on an item in the game using console mode an 8 digit hex number is shown. I clicked on a snow covered rock near Helgen and the number was 0008f51a. That number is called the ref id. It is the identifier for that particular rock. Now you need to get the form id (also called base id). This is the identifier of the base object that was used to make the object I clicked. To get this you open TES5Edit, select only the Bethesda esm files, and wait until it finishes. I entered "0008f51a" in the filter.and hit return. In the right window it said RockM01Snow [sTAT:0002695A']. "0002695A" is the form id. Now you can go into the creation kit, select data, double click skyrim.esm and make it active. enter the form id in the filter window and click *All at the bottom of the windows on the left. In the right part of the window you will see RockM01Snow and under Model it says (unsurprisingly) this uses the mesh \landscape\rocks\rockM01.nif. This is a nif in Skyrim - Meshes.bsa.

 

I'm not sure how to now get the right texture(s) that the mesh uses other than looking in the texture folder for textures with similar names. There are tools for working with meshes but I don't know how to use them.

 

As you can see, it is not a simple process (to the best of my knowledge).

Very good info Kemlych. I still have a lot to learn with regard to CK and TES5Edit, but things like this help me get more comfortable with those tools. You're right, it's not a simple process, but I certainly appreciate any knowledge and I'm sure it will be useful for me

 

I can reciprocate a little. I know how to identify what texture file a mesh uses, but only using NifSkope. An in-game solution would be ideal, but alas I doubt that will ever be possible.

 

Based on your \landscape\rocks\rockM01.nif example, if you open that file in NifSkope, you can click on the mesh in the viewport and the relevant "NiTriShape" will be highlighted in the Block List. Or you can just select the "NiTriShape" if you know what it is (in this case it's the only one). From there, you can expand down to the "BSShaderTextureSet" under "BSLightingShaderProperty". Then at the bottom, under Block Details, you can expand "Textures" and in this case you will see it's associated with \textures\lanscape\mountains\MountainSlab02.dds and \textures\lanscape\mountains\MountainSlab02_N.dds.

We need RefScope for Skyrim ;)

 

This solution is soooooo great and so possible for anyone that understands the CK. Just download the mod and emulate the same behavior in Skyrim. I'd try to figure it out, but I am no natural scripter. Too much stuff I do know how to do that needs doing.

[Kelmych]

I was hoping there was a much simpler way, so perhaps some kind but capable person will build Refscope for Skyrim. It probably wouldn't be nearly as hard as it was to update TES4Edit to TES5Edit since you probably don't need to know the entire data structure. Even if you did the TES5Edit/TESdump team already did determine the data structures.

 

Even then you still have to go to nifscope. By the way, can nifscope tell you without a lot of detective work how the alpha channel of the texture is being used?

[z929669]

The RefSkope route seems as simple as it gets. I am sure any of the seasoned modders could whip this up using that as a model.

[Jaelea]

Hello,

I have a question about a page (sub-page) in the wiki:

"Guide: DDSopt & Texture Overhauls/Mod Optimization"

In the Notes column, I can not find the Notes which are being referred to. I remember seeing them before...

[rootsrat]

Hi guys

 

Maybe a stupid question, but I'd rather ask than screw up half a day of working on this. I went through all the process, finalised the optimisation and I have 5 archives now (2x Hi Res DLC, Vanilla textures, Dawnguard and Hearthfire). I understand that I need to install them now (I use Mod Organiser, so will do through MO). What do I do with the BSA files that I unpacked using DDSopt? Do I delete them from my game directory or do I just leave them there? The DDSopt guide does not mention what to do with them...

 

::EDIT::

 

And just to be clear - I install "HD Texture DLC Fix v1 3b Loose Files" (prepared as per the guide) and THEN install the optimized archive on top of that, overwriting everything, yes?

[z929669]

The BSAs are irrelevant, but Steam will reacquire if you let it.

 

As far as the rest, I am not sure what you are asking. The vanilla textures fix never included the DG and HF DLCs.

[rootsrat]

Ignore my latter question, I got confused...

 

Thanks for a prompt reply :)

[ciddative]

The STEP mod optimization details page is great! ( only just found it by pure chance to be honest, must have missed any mention of it in this thread).

 

Quick question on optimising the STEP mods. I'm trying to keep all my textures  <= 1024x1024, through a lower res download firstly if available, or by the constraints tab, using 1024 on both compressed and uncompressed textures.

 

For some mods that start at 2048x2048 or for which that is the only option (e.g. Book of Silence, Elven Weapons for Silence, Milky Way Galaxy), there is no note in the notes column, where for others there would be a Note 2 or 3. Does this mean resizing these mods is NOT recommended? Does resizing armor or sky textures have a much worse visual impact?

Also Is there a way to also resize irregular shaped textures (ie. resize 2048x1024 to 1024x512) in the same run? It's currently skipping these textures, and I'm not relishing going through them one by one.

[Kelmych]

Hello,

I have a question about a page (sub-page) in the wiki:

"Guide: DDSopt & Texture Overhauls/Mod Optimization"

In the Notes column, I can not find the Notes which are being referred to. I remember seeing them before...

They are just before the STEP Mod Texture Properties Table on the main page . Very soon I'll move the table, which is currently on another page, onto the same page as the mods and then you will be able to use the notes more easily.

[Kelmych]

The STEP mod optimization details page is great! ( only just found it by pure chance to be honest, must have missed any mention of it in this thread).

 

Quick question on optimising the STEP mods. I'm trying to keep all my textures  <= 1024x1024, through a lower res download firstly if available, or by the constraints tab, using 1024 on both compressed and uncompressed textures.

 

For some mods that start at 2048x2048 or for which that is the only option (e.g. Book of Silence, Elven Weapons for Silence, Milky Way Galaxy), there is no note in the notes column, where for others there would be a Note 2 or 3. Does this mean resizing these mods is NOT recommended? Does resizing armor or sky textures have a much worse visual impact?

Also Is there a way to also resize irregular shaped textures (ie. resize 2048x1024 to 1024x512) in the same run? It's currently skipping these textures, and I'm not relishing going through them one by one.

I'll add appropriate Notes annotation to these three; sorry I missed them. If you need to resize them to 1kx1K go ahead, but first read the rest of this reply.

 

DDSopt isn't always able to resize some of the non-square textures. I've noticed this particularly with some of the landscape textures. When it can't it does note this in the log it creates. When this happens there is nothing you can do; it isn't a problem with how you setup the run. Across a large set of mods the total number of textures that can't be optimized is quite small, so it is probably not something to worry about.

 

The hardest question to answer is which textures to select when reducing texture sizes to improve performance. We don't have a table that describes the performance gains and graphic quality loss when reducing the size of textures. I expect that reducing the size of the textures that affect large portions of the screen, such as architecture and landscape textures, provide the most performance gain with reduced size. However, most of the architecture, landscape, dungeon, and interior textures textures in STEP that affect large portions of the screen (vs. clutter textures, for example) are typically high quality textures that have already been optimized by the mod developer. Reducing the size of these can sometimes cause noticeable graphic quality loss.

 

I'm not sure what the performance and quality effects are for reducing texture sizes on weapons, armor, clothing, and textures used for LOD, effects, sky, etc. Perhaps other such as z or Ethatron or some of the mod authors like Cabal and Vurt can comment on this.

 

We have found with recent experimentation that reducing the size of just the normal maps (files ending in *_.dds) provides significant performance improvements without a lot of graphic quality loss. I would suggest trying this first to see if you can get enough performance improvement, especially with mods that have very high quality textures like Book of Silence and Elven Weapons for Silence. Of course, as mentioned above, we don't have any quantitative data on how much performance gain results from reducing armor and weapons textures.

[Jaelea]

@ Kelmych

 

Thank you

:facepalm: I must have "looked at" (not read) that a dozen times, before posting my question. I was looking for blue italic text (at least I think it was) that was above the table the last time I looked at it.