xLODGen - Terrain LOD beta 132 for FNV, FO3, FO4, FO4VR, TES5, SSE, TES5VR, ENDERAL, ENDERALSE

[niston]

I have these settings in the Pref file:

[TerrainManager]
fTreeLoadDistance=75000.0000
fBlockMaximumDistance=250000.0000
fBlockLevel2Distance=110000.0000
fBlockLevel1Distance=90000.0000
fBlockLevel0Distance=60000.0000
fSplitDistanceMult=1.5000
bShowLODInEditor=0

Look ok to me? Probably even ULTRA default or something.

Are these relevant for the LOD generation, or only in-game?

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by niston

[sheson]

6 minutes ago, OregonPete said:

None of the cells have water LOD when you're distant. They just pop in as you get closer. And when you move away, they disappear again. When I check in SSEEdit, all of the CELL records have "Has Water" flagged.

Here is what I found in the SSELODGen Log:

[00:00] [N79MSSunkenRealm] Land height: -5000, Water height: 0, Scanned: 206 CELL records, Found: 202 LAND records for area [-7,-12] to [6,9]
[00:00] [N79MSSunkenRealm] LODsettings: Level 4 to 32 stride 256 from -96,-96 to 0,0

Is that what you needed?

Is it possible that the options file with the setting to ignore water so that underwater faces are not removed from object LOD is also used for terrain LOD generation and there ignore water means to not generate water LOD. So generate object in one session with the options file and then in a new session generate terrain LOD without the options file. 

5 minutes ago, niston said:

I have these settings in the Pref file:

[TerrainManager]
fTreeLoadDistance=75000.0000
fBlockMaximumDistance=250000.0000
fBlockLevel2Distance=110000.0000
fBlockLevel1Distance=90000.0000
fBlockLevel0Distance=60000.0000
fSplitDistanceMult=1.5000
bShowLODInEditor=0

Look ok to me? Probably even ULTRA default or something.

Are these relevant for the LOD generation, or only in-game?

 

They look OK. LOD generation does not care about INI settings. As explained earlier, it simply generates the BTOs for the different LOD levels with the LOD models defined on the base records.

[niston]

Well then. I have no idea why the Game behaves differently with the generated LOD than it does with the Vanilla LOD.

Edited May 18, 2021 by niston

[sheson]

18 minutes ago, niston said:

Well then. I have no idea why the Game behaves differently with the generated LOD than it does with the Vanilla LOD.

There is really only two possibilities. There are plugins in the load order that change references/base record etc. so that the generated LOD is different (can be checked by comparing BTOs) or something else changes that has nothing to do with xLODGen and the generated LOD meshes and textures.

Since nobody else ever reported this issues so far, we can assume the LOD generation itself works as it should.

[niston]

But we already checked. I mean I took the exemplary Overpass piece. There are no overrides to it except the BGSM from the LODGen resources.
We also checked the BTO there. It looks as expected for LOD Level 32. When I told the overpass piece that it has a LOD mesh for Level 3, it appeared in the 32 LOD after regenration.
Also I don't use a mod manager, so there are no virtual filesystem tricks involved or anything suchlike, which could be a source for confusion.

It's just that the game does not use 32 with the vanilla LOD, but uses it as soon as there are generated LOD files around.

You have to admit, it makes no sense.

[sheson]

1 minute ago, niston said:

But we already checked. I mean I took the exemplary Overpass piece. There are no overrides to it except the BGSM from the LODGen resources.
We also checked the BTO there. It looks as expected for LOD Level 32. When I told the overpass piece that it has a LOD mesh for Level 3, it appeared in the 32 LOD after regenration.
Also I don't use a mod manager, so there are no virtual filesystem tricks involved or anything suchlike, which could be a source for confusion.

It's just that the game does not use 32 with the vanilla LOD, but uses it as soon as there are generated LOD files around.

You have to admit, it makes no sense.

The game uses LOD level 32. It is the furthest away LOD level. It will be used about starting about 250000 units away from the current center cell.
The nearest LOD level is 4. It starts right beyond the loaded cells.

[niston]

But you said yourself: We're not looking at the same LOD level in the 2nd screenshot.
So the Game must be using a more detailed LOD level for the background scenery when there's only vanilla LOD. But it stops using that more detailed LOD level as soon as there are generated LOD files around. And when the generated Files are deleted, the Game uses the more detailed level again.
For whatever, obscure reason that might be.

Edited May 18, 2021 by niston

[sheson]

11 minutes ago, niston said:

But you said yourself: We're not looking at the same LOD level in the 2nd screenshot.
So the Game must be using a more detailed LOD level for the background scenery when there's only vanilla LOD. But it stops using that more detailed LOD level as soon as there are generated LOD files around.

Have you compared LOD level 4/8/16 BTOs contain what they should?

Following proper modding practice. Use a modding guide.  Use MO2, do not install the game into Program Filesx86 and do not have any loose files in the physical data folder.
Generate LOD into a dedicated output folder, pack  it and install it as a mod.
Test it with the vanilla game, no additional mods, not even the LOD stuff.

If then there still is a problem and the generated BTOs seem  fine, start by posting the xLODGen log.

[OregonPete]

1 hour ago, sheson said:

Is it possible that the options file with the setting to ignore water so that underwater faces are not removed is also used for terrain LOD generation and there ignore water mean to not generate water LOD. So generate object in on session with the options file and then in a new session generate terrain LOD without the options file. 

It's exactly as you predicted. If you use the option file with IgnoreWater=True, you get the mountain LOD underwater, but no water LOD, as seen in the first screenshot. If you don't use the option file, you get the underwater LOD, but the mountains are just triangles, as seen in the second screenshot. Any idea what we can do so we get both water LOD and the mountain LOD underwater?

One more issue: the water LOD doesn't seem to have the same transparency as normal water, meaning you still get a cutoff between the two. Is there anything I can do to make that better?

 

 

 

[niston]

I have already packed the LOD files into two BA2 archives, Main and Textures and associated them with a plugin. I've further activated that plugin in the load order and removed the loose files. It made no difference, as described.

The generated 16.* LOD level BTOs look more detailed than the 32.* ones, as is presumably expected. In particular, they show the overpass pieces.

As a final measure, I removed ALL plugins from the load order (empty Plugins.txt) and ran LODGen. Applying these LOD files to the game, the result is the same: It is using Level 32 LOD and -as a result- entire buildings are missing from the presented scenery:

Maybe also to note that the white/rusty skyscaper facade is purely statics. It is entirely missing from the 32 LOD as well.
Same for the black/dark gray building to the left of it.
Using the vanilla LOD, these buildings are there, just not very detailed - Which is why I propped them up with some statics.

The log file for this run can be found here:

https://x0.at/3Hv.txt

Makes me think this might well be a general problem. Probably just no one noticed it so far, because who goes to check out the Exterior LOD in Goodneighbor or some interior cell... I'd say if you were to install FO4 and run lodgen, you'd notice the same behavior in Goodneighbor, or Diamond City, or any Interior Cell that has Exterior LOD.

Edited May 19, 2021 by niston

[z929669]

6 hours ago, niston said:

Also I don't use a mod manager, so there are no virtual filesystem tricks involved or anything suchlike, which could be a source for confusion.

I would argue that something like MO or possibly Vortex would actually help with discovery. The VFS has never been an issue for me, so if others have issues, I suspect it's related to the OS config and UAC. If not using a mod manager, I think it is easier to miss things and harder to leave orphaned files and other junk in the load order. It's just cleaner, IMHO.

Perhaps try this approach from scratch, and you may find something. That right Data pane in MO is pretty informative, as is the conflict tracing in the mods themselves.

PS: sorry, I'm off topic. Just suggesting this as a means to resolve your issue and either confirm your suspicions or rule out the LOD generation. Carry on!

[sheson]

7 hours ago, OregonPete said:

Any idea what we can do so we get both water LOD and the mountain LOD underwater?

As I said, generate object LOD in one session and the terrain LOD in another.

7 hours ago, OregonPete said:

One more issue: the water LOD doesn't seem to have the same transparency as normal water, meaning you still get a cutoff between the two. Is there anything I can do to make that better?

No clue, especially if it is the same water record. It's probably because of the LOD shader being different to the full water shader.

You probably have find to a trick, like placing water meshes directly with the IsFullLOD flag that cover each cell, or one large mesh that covers the entire area, or maybe just add reference that only have faces downwards just right below the water level.

[sheson]

6 hours ago, niston said:

As a final measure, I removed ALL plugins from the load order (empty Plugins.txt) and ran LODGen. Applying these LOD files to the game, the result is the same.

That sounds like that once the game was started, plugins/mods are active again. You still seem to assume the generated LOD making the game doing things differently, despite by now you hopefully have compared many different BTOs that they actually contain what they are supposed to contain. Especially LOD level 4 which is the nearest LOD level.

6 hours ago, niston said:

It is using Level 32 LOD and -as a result- entire buildings are missing from the presented scenery:

That LOD we can see is not object LOD level 32, obviously. This just looks like a cell does not have full models defined and its LOD is disabled.
That is probably because you have a mod that disables LOD for that cell in order to show full models instead. You have to add reference for all buildings of the entire cell obviously.

6 hours ago, niston said:

The log file for this run can be found here:

Generate LOD into a dedicated output folder. Pack it and install as a mod. The game should not be installed into special Windows folders so avoid permission/access problems because of UAC, antivir etc.

[niston]

I think we established affirmatively that, what is being shown is LOD Level 32 in fact - by adding a single Overpass piece to that LOD level (giving it a Level 3 mesh to use) and it promptly showing up in the presented scenery after regenerating LOD. If I remove the Level 3 mesh from that piece of overpass STAT and regenerate the LOD once more, the piece has vanished again from the scenery. Now if something appears or vanishes, depending on if it has a Level 3 mesh - What kind of LOD level are we looking at then, if not Level 3 (32)?

We've also checked out a bunch of BTO files, and they look like their vanilla counterparts (except for where changes were made, like the Airport, or that Overpass Piece). What's more, the BTO for 32 LOD Level look like the LOD we see, missing most buildings and -most notably- the overpass pieces!

I've thought about a potential mod that maybe hides LOD. But, even ignoring the fact that the only mod for this particular rexford interior cell in my LO is my own, which really does quite the opposite of hiding LOD,  the theory doesn't hold for various reasons.

In the beginning, we've done testing with absolutely no changes to the load order or to any settings, only adding/removing generated LOD. Yet we observe and documented a rather striking difference between vanilla LOD and generated LOD, only and solely depending on generated LOD files being present or not. If that hypothetical mod which hides LOD existed in my LO, it would have been active all the time and thus also hidden the LOD in the vanilla screenshots. Which is quite obviously not the case. So it's unlikely to be a runtime setting that causes it. 

I've also generated LOD with zero plugins active, but the result is unchanged. So it's not a design (generation) time thing either and becomes really extremely unlikely to be a plugin causing it at all. And for the sake of completeness, I just tried one last thing, which is to apply LOD that has been generated with zero plugins active, to a game that has zero plugins active. I coc'd to the rexford cell, used TFC and went up a bit. What we see is this:

I then removed the generated LOD, coc'd to the same goodneighborhotelrexford cell, used TFC and went up a bit, to see this:

 

We observe the very same discrepancy in level of detail, in a game with zero plugins, using a LOD that was generated with zero plugins active. 
So, No. It's not a mod doing this.

Furthermore, as reported earlier, this strange behavior is not limited to this particular cell. We can observe it in Diamond City, we can observe it in Goodneighbor, we can observe it in Interior Cells that have Exterior LOD. It's really the common denominator here; All these places use Exterior (Commonwealth) LOD.

Meanwhile, it appears that "game world" LOD, ie not the Exterior LOD of an interior cell, is working perfectly fine/same as vanilla. There is no discernable discrepancy looking at the Boston Skyline from Fort Strong, whether there is new LOD installed or not. Nothing is missing from the scenery.

Now I can accept the fact that the observed behavior cannot be rationally explained atm. I will keep you posted, should I find out more.

Edited May 19, 2021 by niston

[sheson]

30 minutes ago, niston said:

I think we established affirmatively that, what is being shown is LOD Level 32 in fact - by adding a single Overpass piece to that LOD level (giving it a Level 3 mesh to use) and it promptly showing up in the presented scenery after regenerating LOD. If I remove the Level 3 mesh from that piece of overpass STAT and regenerate the LOD once more, the piece has vanished again from the scenery. Now if something appears or vanishes, depending on if it has a Level 3 mesh - What kind of LOD level are we looking at then, if not Level 3 (32)?

We've also checked out a bunch of BTO files, and they look like their vanilla counterparts (except for where changes were made, like the Airport, or that Overpass Piece).

I've thought about a potential mod that maybe hides LOD. But, even ignoring the fact that the only mod for this particular rexford interior cell in my LO is my own, which really does quite the opposite of hiding LOD,  the theory doesn't hold for various reasons.

In the beginning, we've done testing with absolutely no changes to the load order or to any settings, only adding/removing generated LOD. Yet we observe and documented a rather striking difference between vanilla LOD and generated LOD, only and solely depending on generated LOD files being present or not. If that hypothetical mod which hides LOD existed in my LO, it would have been active all the time and thus also hidden the LOD in the vanilla screenshots. Which is quite obviously not the case. So it's unlikely to be a runtime setting that causes it. 

I've also generated LOD with zero plugins active, but the result is unchanged. So it's not a design (generation) time thing either and becomes really extremely unlikely to be a plugin causing it at all. And for the sake of completeness, I just tried one last thing, which is to apply LOD that has been generated with zero plugins active, to a game that has zero plugins active. I coc'd to the rexford cell, used TCF and went up a bit. What we see is this:

I then removed the generated LOD, coc'd to the same goodneighborhotelrexford cell, used TFC and went up a bit, to see this:

 

We observe the very same discrepancy in level of detail, in a game with zero plugins, using a LOD that was generated with zero plugins active. 
So, No. It's not a mod doing this.

Furthermore, as reported earlier, this strange behavior is not limited to this particular cell. We can observe it in Diamond City, we can observe it in Goodneighbor, we can observe it in Interior Cells that have Exterior LOD. It's really the common denominator here; All these places use Commonwealth LOD.

Now I can accept the fact that the observed behavior cannot be rationally explained atm. I will keep you posted, should I find out more.

The first screenshot has way too many structures to be one of the 4 LOD level 32 files, no?
The one you posted has the most structures of the 4 files. The screenshot shows way more things.

Are there any other people having similar issues with their load order?

If you believe there is something going on with the LOD meshes, then I suggest to actually start troubleshooting that.
For example, identify which LOD level 4 BTO is supposed to show there immediately beyond the loaded cells. Then add more LOD level 4 BTO for the surrounding area maybe. Then add LOD Level 8 meshes. Or maybe vice versa, start with adding only LOD Level 32 BTO and then go down.
Maybe you identify a single file.

Maybe compare BTO closer than just visually. Like the additional settings and values in the NIF blocks that are not vertex data/shader/texture.