Abandoned Mods

[SynthetikHD]

Unfortunately it seems your ethics don't jibe with most of the rest of this community. Some of what you're essentially saying is theft, when it gets down to tin tacks. 

Uploading a mod saying it is your own is stealing. Uploading a mod where you don't give credit to the author is stealing. Using someone else's work and making it better doesn't seem like stealing to me. :/

 

Sigh, maybe I'm just a sociopath for thinking that there is nothing wrong with people enjoying modified versions of other peoples work.

 

I won't say anymore on the topic, it seems I'm getting downvoted which I didn't even realize was a thing.

[Nozzer66]

I see your point. Honestly I see your point. 

 

However, until the general idea changes we have to live with what we have now. This is essentially the same whole issue that stops there being a fully automated one download and setup for the whole STEP guide, etc. 

[MonoAccipiter]

I'm getting downvoted which I didn't even realize was a thing.

Me neither. I'm sorry this put you off from further discussing the topic. This was a very interesting theme of discussion (IMHO).

 

As for the difference between stealing and "loaning" - I would honestly point to older practices than ours where the likes of Newton said he could only achieve what he achieved because he "stood on the shoulders of giants". Would science have gone anywhere if scientists had some way of protecting their thoughts from the prelatic touch of their successors? It goes without saying that this speaks in your favor. Yet it is a fine line to walk. Art has obviously been much more protective of their right to claim something as their own intellectual property (since the Renaissance at least, before then most painters would make works anonymously for churches and the like) and the growing urge of more people to work with their dreams of leads to an attempt at ascertaining the value of everything. For example if you say you are a painter, but you only paint for yourself, most people would scoff at that description. Now the French existentialists (which I don't actually feel the need to name, because the most central of them at least did not care much about being remembered) would say that it is absurd to limit your own definition of yourself in that way. Is the small book worth writing et cetera. As such you could say that the necessity of maintaining strict control over your intellectual property is absurd, especially in terms of modding, where you would think that the goal of both parties (that would be the modder and the potential userbase) would be achieving the highest possible amount of fun. So long as someone gives full credit when modifying a mod, how would that remove the fun or reward from either party? I think most people here would agree that the answer is simply that it does not. Especially if you were to attain the view that the existentialist movement would argue for, which is that the societal views you allow to wall-in your self or your dreams are innately absurd. As such the act of learning to make mods (and I think many can recognize this aspect of it without being at all familiar with the philosophy I refer to) wouldn't be because you desired external recognition or gratification, since they are no longer needed either for your goal or your coveted definition of self; but rather because you desired to make a particular mod. 

 

However, Nozzer66 does have the gist of it (much like I mentioned before as well) in that as long as the general idea remains as it is, there is a very large step from arguing for a change to actively forcing such a change upon someone. I realize I might have made this overly complicated, but if I was lucky I also managed to ameliorate both concepts a little. 

Edited June 17, 2016 by MonoAccipiter

[TechAngel85]

What SynthetikHD is really trying to describe is open modding where you're free to do as you wish as long as credit is given. That's 100% open modding. However, I don't agree going against authors wishes is right. Basically it comes down to respect.

 

• You ask me not to smoke in your car and I do it anway. What's the worse that can happen? I get kicked out of your car.
• You are told no by an author about updating their mod but you do it anyway. What's the worse that can happen? You get banned from the site(s).

Now the other approach...

• You ask me not to smoke in your car. I don't smoke because I respect you and your property. I have no right to force my habit upon you so I respect your wishes.
• You are told no by an author about updating their mod. You don't do it out of respect because that it's their work and their wishes. You get respect by giving respect. Your only option is to recreate the mod from scratch and release that with open permissions for all to use. Your mod eventually becomes better and you watch with pleasure as their mod fades into oblivion.

Basically, there is a right way to do something and a wrong way. Make your choice and live with the consequences.

 

And just it is clear, STEP doesn't allow links to such mods that have been made against their author's wishes. Any links and topics related to such will be shut down and potential warnings passed around to the posters of such content.

 

Needed to say that just in case...

[kryptopyr]

You can't generalize the motivations of mod authors.  We all have different drives and desires that keep us going and encourage us to continue modding.  However, I think it is this very clear lack of respect that really aggravates many mod authors.  You think those few hypothetical hours that you put into updating the mod were tedious?  Well, guess just how many hours of tedious work the original mod author went through in order to create that mod in the first place, then to share it for free for others could use it? 

 

The vast majority of mod authors are happy to share their work.  In my experience, if you ask respectfully, they will almost always give permission to modify or adapt their work.  However, there are too many users out there who have little to no respect for the amount of time mod authors devote to making and supporting their mods.  Many users seem to think "it's been freely given, so I can do with it whatever I want," but that is wrong (both legally and ethically). 

 

Mod authors are, broadly-speaking, incredibly generous people.  They give much of their time freely to contribute to others' enjoyment and to provide updates and technical support for their mods and the games themselves.  But no one likes to feel like they are being taken for granted or disrespected.  That's never a good feeling, and it can taint the entire process.  The more pervasive this attitude becomes, the more it is driving mod authors away from modding.  So yeah, if you lack respect for the decision made by a mod author and release their mod after they have explicitly told you not to, then you may personally get away with it without any penalty, but your attitude and behavior would be contributing to the erosion of mod authors from the modding community.  You would be placing yourself as part of the problem.  Instead, why not spend that same amount of time making a mod that is uniquely yours and contributing positively to the community?

[kryptopyr]

"Loaning" implies knowledge and consent of the person you are loaning from, without those it is stealing, plain and simple.

 

Newton's "standing on the shoulders of giants" comment would apply more appropriately to learning from other mods and taking what you learn to create a new mod of your own.  Many mod authors release their script sources for this reason.  Others contribute to the wiki page or answer questions on the forums.  That's what it means to "stand on the shoulders of giants."  Study a mod to learn how to do something, then create something new and unique.  Don't copy what has been done before.  Merely copying a mod or making a couple minor changes does not even bring you eye-level with the giant who created it.

 

Scientist's are just as possessive about their intellectual property and individual work and research as any artist.  Do you think many scientists would be grateful to someone who steals and publishes their research somewhere without their permission?  Hell no!  The history of science is filled with many bitter rivalries due to stolen research. 

 

You're drawing a false distinction between the sharing of scientific knowledge and the sharing of artistic knowledge (and modding knowledge).  Just as the collective body of scientific knowledge has expanded over the years, artists have also shared their techniques and methods with one another, which has lead to the continual progress and advancement in art throughout the centuries.  In the same way, the general body of knowledge about modding continues to grow and expand as mod authors continue to contribute their individual discoveries to this public knowledge. 

[MonoAccipiter]

Your mod eventually becomes better and you watch with pleasure as their mod fades into oblivion.

I realize this was probably said humorously, but that kind of attitude is probably part of the problem. If it is important that something you made is better than something else, then I can understand why you would not want others to improve upon it (i.e. you would rather display it in your parlor).

 

@kryptopyr: My argument was less about assuming what mod authors' motivations were, as much as it was about speculating on how one could approach a point of view that did not necessitate such inimical attitudes. I do agree that disrespecting a mod author's wishes is rather pointless in attempting to advocate a change. I have personally improved a lot of mods with permission. One example of this is the New Vegas Landscape Overhaul mod which was a great idea, but had some jarring issues like floating rocks in the middle of a town and tons of deleted navmeshes. If I didn't take the time (which I think amounted to quite a lot) to fix those issues the mod probably would have slipped into nothingness, as the author had abandoned it. Luckily for me, and him, he had written something along the lines of "do whatever you please, just credit me as the original creator". This also meant something he had made could actually be enjoyed by people instead of just making them crash. On the other hand you have the Spice of Life mod which created a Ranger Armor with some cool effects on it called the Rogue Ranger Duster, I've messaged nivea about releasing my improved meshes, where I took the ADAM mod's improved meshes (another mod I heavily fixed by adding female meshes where they were missing and lots of other stuff, then had darthbdaman improve upon my work further so as to make it even better) and combined them with SoL's decor, as well as painting the skull emblem over ADAM's textures to use them instead of the low res modified vanilla ones already included. However, he/she has not reached out to me beyond two messages about not ignoring me, so eventually I gave up, and had to keep the files for my own sake (the only exception being that I can make the plugins in my pack point to ADAM's textures, so it is semi-functional). That way I respected the author's wishes (which I always will) but I don't see how anybody won on it.

 

Actually, possessive scientists are a thing of the modern world. Most renaissance writers saw their work as helping understand God's creation (and Newton was probably more concerned with his work in alchemy than in physics). Socrates did not care much about leaving behind a body of work. Plato only cared about contributing to the conversation. Tesla is suppose to have said the Bell were using 13 (or a similar number) of his patents, but he considered him a good guy so he did not care. As for art, I have never studied art history much, but there is a reason why such movements as Dada exist, and yes, lots of artists do share their techniques and that is very good. I never drew any strong distinction between them, but the idea of some artistic property is much more deeply engraved in art than it is in science, and you may very well argue that science's move towards a similar attitude could even be hurtful for it. Last Week Tonight did a piece not too long ago where they talked about how there wasn't a Nobel Price for fact-checking (which there is not) and how that has affected a massive amount of research engineered to provide suprising results, if perhaps not as useful. I didn't know that famous artists bothered spending much time teaching their techniques either, whether they do that well in a popular field (like music) or a more traditional one (like painting).

 

This whole not on eye-level with the giant who created it thing really, really, really irated me, so I tried not to be too focused on that, but do you honestly think everyone wants to be damn giant? When I started out modding I was dealing with a major illness that had forced me to drop two subject from school in order to manage finishing the rest, and being able to be part of a community through something as small as editing other mods other people had created (like New Vegas Landscape Overhaul which was basically unplayable) meant a lot to me. Was I supposed to worship other people because they had the time and energy I lacked? This distinction between people is exactly what makes the bitterness bubble, it does actually go both ways. Why does everything have to be new and unique?

[SynthetikHD]

Okay guys I don’t need a -3 reputation to see that everyone disagrees with me….

 

All I’m trying to say is I don’t think people should have a right to deny someone else to MODIFY their own work. I’m not sure why “stealing†keeps being thrown around and analogies to stealing like “Do you think many scientists would be grateful to someone who steals and publishes their research somewhere without their permission?â€

 

That is not what I’m saying!?!?!?! Why do you guys think I am???

 

All I’m saying is...I do not think Leonardo da Vinci has a right to say that no alterations of the Mona Lisa can be made. I think it is ethically acceptable for these to exist, even if the author does not want them to.

I don’t think Katy Perry has a right to say that no remixes of her songs can be made. I think it is ethically acceptable for these to exist, even if the author does not want them to.

I don’t think Turkey’s dictator has a right to say that no alterations of images of him can be made. I think it is ethically acceptable for these to exist, even if the author does not want them to.

 

Finally, I don’t think a mod author has a right to say that alterations of their mod are not allowed to be made. If I ask a mod author if I can upload a purple variation of a sword that he made while still giving him credit, and he says no...I would respect his choice. However, I still think it is ethically acceptable for me to upload a purple variation of his sword online, even though I would not do it.

 

Mod authors, and authors in general, have a right to their work. I just don’t feel they should have the right to deny people of having fun and modifying their work.

 

Also, this is a hypothetical situation. I do not know a mod author that would deny someone the permission to modify or change their mod. Mod authors are nice.

 

 

Okay, you can proceed with downvoting me now. Have fun.

Edited June 17, 2016 by SynthetikHD

[TechAngel85]

Yes, only said in humor, Mono.

[MonoAccipiter]

Yes, only said in humor, Mono.

Good, I thought so. 

[GamerPoets]

This is a generalized statement. I have no problem talking directly to individuals if I feel that I need to lol, so don't think that I'm beating around the bush. I just felt the need to share my thoughts on the subject at large. If I didn't respect everyone's comments thus far I wouldn't take the time to type this. There are some people that I have a lot of respect for who are posting in this topic, who have done a lot to help me on my modding journey and I wanted to share my thoughts with them. 

 

What I feel this all comes down to is this...

 

Creative property in any form (music, television, paintings, mods) is one or more people devoting a large amount of their life (whether it's hours, weeks, months or years) to something that they believe in one way or another. 

 

Regarding mods and nexus and other sites, there should definitely be some sort of check box or something that says "yes, allow others to use my mod as they wish" "no, you cannot upload it elsewhere" " after this amount of time you can... blah blah blah" or whatever.. you know? I also feel that once someone uploads a mod that shouldn't be able to just pull it away from those who use it by removing it (I'll say why at the end of this book I'm writing lol) But none of that exists yet as far as I know so it's a moot point.

 

So... 

 

To guess at what someone else is feeling about this subject, if they have not said anything either way about it, (before disappearing or not) or to think that they "should" feel how you do on the subject (whether they actually do agree or not) is selfish, un-thoughtful and borderline narcissistic among other things. Words have definitions and regarding this situation to take someone else's work (and don't be fooled, because whether it is "fun" or not it is "work") is to be those words and that type of person. (The type of person that most people in this community want nothing to do with and to not be a part of. Which is the only reason why people like me even consider to continue being a part of it and to put so much effort into what we do. There is enough BS in "real life" that I don't need it to ooze into my passions or hobbies and many feel that way, too. The reason that many stick around the community, and continue to create mods and to support it, damn sure isn't the replay-ability of Skyrim for 5 years+lol).

 

Summary of all that: If you don't know how someone feels it's not your place to assume (that's with anything in life)...continuing on =)

 

If someone says that credit is enough then cool, credit them and do as you wish. But if someone states that they want their mods only on nexus then they should be respected. You don't know what creating that mod did for this person. It could have been their way to get through a tough time in life. It could have been something that they poured every piece of themselves into creatively to prove to themselves that they could do it. It could be a simple form of therapy or just a hobby. Perhaps the mod author has something against the other sites. Perhaps the mod author has a strong personal connection to nexus and they want to give back to it for whatever nexus "gave" to them personally when they needed something to be given to them. It's not your "right" to guess or to even be allowed to know how they feel unless they care to share their reasons with you.

 

When someone pours as much effort into their creative works as many mod authors do, taking their mod and uploading it elsewhere is like me taking anything that you have worked hard on, that you hold dear to yourself, and tossing it around in the mud like it's no big deal. ...Yes, that's exactly what it's like to some people and it's not your decision to say that they shouldn't feel how they do about it. As a human being you should respect their efforts and the fact that they made it public for anyone to use at all. More importantly, you should respect their feelings and your potential lack of understanding about them.

 

On the other hand, when someone makes a song and sells it (just an example) and puts it on the radio there are large amounts of people who will fall in love with it. Once you have created something and given it to the world it is no longer 100% the creators. It's just not. There's no two ways about it. When you allow someone else to develop an attachment to something (minor or large, emotional or whatever) that you have created you have entitled that person to be able to listen to it, watch it, or use it, whatever it is as often as they care too or need to. If the initial requirements were for that person to pay for it upfront so be it. If the wishes of this person were for you to only play with these works on a specific version of a game, then that is what they are. You don't need a law to tell you how not to be an A-hole. If you have the desire to bring that mod to a "new level" then "you" "need" to do the work and put that same care and effort into as the original creator did to both respect and honor it and not just "bootleg their CD" and give it out elsewhere... because when you do that you go from being a supporter who deserves you're own piece of what you fell in love with, regarding their work, to a hustler (which I know a great deal about in "real life" lol). A hustler who may not have only ruined this experience/passtime/hobby/passion/whatever that a mod author (person) once needed but you have potentially robbed them of their passion by tainting it with selfish actions. Who know's what creating these mods really allowed this person to get through in life. And if they are being a dick to others... have you heard how horrible people in comments can be and how annoying? I didn't create a video called "The ***** Song" for nothing lol. Perhaps this experience has already been ruined for them and they only keep their mods up on nexus out of respect for some or with hopes of regaining the feeling that they once had for this community.

 

As I stated at the beginning of this long wall of text... "it comes down to this"... to be  a decent human-being and to understand what it means to be one.

 

If anyone doesn't understand that (and the majority of what I have wrote) they have a lot to learn about this very short life that we are living. Not everyone who creates a mod views them as "trading cards". 

 

Sure, modding is about having fun and sharing that fun with other people... TO YOU, that is what modding is =) ... and mostly to me = )... but that doesn't mean that our, my, or our thoughts and feelings allow us to take something that we didn't create and to do what we wish with it. Mods may be pass-times and ways to not be bored for some but for others they are life saving acts of creativity or monuments of personal growth. 

 

 

.. after writing all of this I read Synthetiks recent post... I like the Mono Lisa statement. You're right and people DO modify the Mono Lisa all of the time. However, they aren't allowed to simply paint over the original copy. They have to either recreate it from scratch and make adjustments as they go or use a photocopy of some sorts, but still, it's not the original version... not to mention that Leo has been long dead and his emotional attachments to his work are probably justifiably assumed to no longer be what they once were... however, we still do everything that we can to protect and honor the original... what a sexy lady she is lol

 

Goodnight. 

[EssArrBee]

Well, all those pictures of Mona Lisa would be parody which is protected under fair use in the USA. I guess you could technically make parody mods? Probably gonna piss people off though.

 

I reject the notion that scientists weren't every bit as possessive as they are now. AFAIK money has existed for a long time and you don't just sit around doing math all day and not have any bills. Leonardo Da Vinci was one of the biggest military contractors of his day. He designed all kinds of fantastical contraptions of death and destruction and only sold them to military. He didn't publish his weapon designs and share them with everyone. He wanted money, just like scientists do now. As a scientist I'm offended at the notion that my idols weren't every bit as self-centered and egocentric as I am. Publish or perish. 

 

EDIT: Actually, I better add something else about mods, I was getting OT. 

 

We should probably just do w/e mod authors want so they keep making mods. I can put up with people and their demands for credit as long as they keep giving me free ****. 

[zilav]

"I don’t think people should have a right..."

The epitome of this discussion. When such thoughts start to arise, wars happen.

[TechAngel85]

I like what GP said.

 

Modding for me is a past-time, a hobby, but it's one that I happen to love. I work in management at a national clothing retailer where I manage everything you see on the floor; from the merchandise to the associates helping customers and everything in-between. This is not the job I wanted to end up with. My formal schooling is in Computer Network Engineering, of which I have several internationally recognized IT certifications and lack only one year to get my bachelors degree (financial reasons have kept me from finishing). My passion lies in IT, but I'm am where I am now and that's not going to change anytime soon. The job is actually a good job with little complaints, but it's not my passion and it gets boring and monotonous more often than I'd like. There is no challenge in the work I do and my own history has taught me when I am no longer challenged by my job, I usually move on. However, I'm older now and realize I can't go job hopping. I need a stable paying job to survive and I usually just scrape by just like most. So how do I combat this? How to I keep walking into a job every day that isn't my passion and isn't providing a challenge for me? I mod.

 

Since I'm no longer challenged at work I find the challenge at home, in modding. Modding keeps me interested and constantly provides some type of challenge to work through and figure out. It allows me to give back to a community that I love and care about which makes me feel good and keeps me from becoming depressed. Without modding, I would probably be a lot worse off than I am now because it provides me a sense of accomplishment that I don't get anywhere else in my life right now. I drive the other Staff around here nuts somethings because I sink myself into my role as a Staff member and modder because of what it provides me. They understand this to a degree and, thankfully, put up with me. ::

 

The point I'm attempting to drive home is the same as GP's. Few to no one knows where those modders are in life. Few to no one knows their story and why they mod. By not respecting them, you could be doing far more harm than you realize. True, some just do it because they're good at it and have nothing else to do. True, some have egos that are way bigger than they should be. But that's always been a part of the community and you just learn to respect those modders just as you do any other. However, every once in a while you might run into a modder who mods because it provides them an escape from life; whether it be a bad home-life where their parents aren't the best of parents, a hard time in life from someone close passing or some type of trauma, or just needing to seek a challenge. These may seem like "extreme cases", but they are real stories I have had from other modders. You're "harmless act" could be far more harmful than you know...so respect others both online and in real life until you have taken a walk in their shoes.

 

There are some straight argumentative replies here, but if you can look past those, the others provide some truly great insights into life and general respect of all. Assuming one cares about such things...the young usually do not until they are older and have experienced some of life's harsher moments...speaking from experience.

[kryptopyr]

@GamerPoets

Beautifully said. +1

 

 

@MonoAcciniter

The entire "giant" thing was in direct reference to the original quote you mentioned and was solely intended as a reflection on how I feel the quote should more properly be interpreted.  I figured that the reference was obvious, and I'm sorry if you read more into it than was intended.

 

 

@SynthetikHD

You are both ethically and legally wrong.  That's why people here are disagreeing with you and downvoting you.  Just because you don't seem to understand that what you are proposing is wrong, does not magically make it right. 

 

I would suggest taking some time to read up on copyright law (Nolo has a good book on the subject) where most of your examples have been fairly clearly addressed.  If you do, then you'll also discover why your examples do not apply properly to modding and are not particularly relevant to it.  For example, Da Vinci has been dead for 500 years.  His work is legally considered public domain in all countries.  If you happen to find a mod author who has been dead an equally long time, then yes, you can feel free to use their mod without issue. 

 

Again, I recommend reading up on copyright laws.  Definitely read the TOS for Nexus and Beth.net.  Of course, you'll probably just say that you don't think any of these countries, companies, or websites have the right to ask you to adhere to their laws / TOS since that seems to be the broader gist of your argument, but you are not likely to find any support for such views here.