Paid mods are now available on the workshop

[GrantSP]

Looks like the Nexus hammers have been falling on posts over in the iNeed forum.

I tried to write a post that asked for calm and offered some support for modders in general and Isoku in particular. Moved on to some other threads and then went back and it looks like the last days worth of posts have just been pruned from existence!

[kryptopyr]

Gopher released a video (apparently just a few hours before all this blew up), where he was speculating about the possibility of paid mods.  A lot of his points have been repeated elsewhere, but he does talk about some of the potential upsides that this development could have for modding. 

 

For those who are currently only seeing doom and gloom, it might be worth watching:

[EssArrBee]

The people giving off hate and offering nothing in return will fade away after a few days. The people that want to have an actual dialogue about this will be able to do so after the knuckleheads cry themselves to sleep.

 

Now that I think about the whole thing some more I remember hearing Wrye give a talk about the Austin GDC a few years ago about how valuable modding could be to devs. The implementation may be a bit terrible, but the truth is that this has been on the horizon for quite a while. I think the ability to get mods for free should never go away, but a payment model is probably here to stay. It needs to be fair to the users though. The worst case scenario is not being able to have 500 mods installed without dropping a grand on a load order. The best case scenario is that someone won't have to work some sh**y job anymore and could mod fulltime.

 

The part about the video makers making money off of mods while modders aren't is a pretty good point. I'd actually be concerned about that if I made mods that people were using to make money and I wasn't making anything. 

 

Gopher also released a video about the Steam Workshop that he threw together really quick. He urged caution and told people to remain civil. That didn't work obviously.

[Nozzer66]

Ah it was never going to remain civil. Not with the Nexus crowd.

 

Curious... Wonder who'll do something like make a similar mod to Wet and Cold (call it Moist and Freezing or something) and post THAT on the Nexus as free. Would be interesting to watch if it happened.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Nozzer66

[oqhansoloqo]

"Whether this program fails or succeeds, whether free modding dies or manages to live on, I can say that I played a part in it for better or worse." - Isoku

 

You know I don't care much for that statement.

[hishutup]

After thinking about this a little more, I believe this is the conclusion I have.

 

For a handful mods this is a blessing to be able to monitze their hard work.

Just to pull some names and give -what I believe to be- a reason able amount to them: Falskaar is worth $3, Frostfall is worth $2.50 and Wet and Cold is worth $2.00. 

All of the mentioned names have proved their worth over quite some time.

 

The major problem I have with this is every mod author and their mother will make mods like the single sword and post it for 99 cents, even though no one in their right mind is going to purchase it but stay with me here.

 

Skyrim's mods are not JUST a few good releases. There are ~40.5K mod pages on the nexus.

I think only about ~5-10 k are even worth your time to look at.

 

But just think about how many popular mods you use in you Load Order or Install, now think if some mods were hidden behind a 99 cent paywall.

I dont know about you but have I dont have that kind of money laying around.

 

 

This can also inhibit modders growth. In some ways.

Lets be honest if there was a fairly new author that just so happens to release exclusively behind the paywall then that wouldn't be smart and their mods would likely disappear or the author would have to think about what he/she is doing.

 

My main fear is that the "Paid" mods will mimic the app store. If you have never used it or have never really been observant then you may have missed some pretty ridiculous stuff.

The app store is flooded with copies of copies of apps of copies of real copyrighted software and. (they also seem to get away with it but that is off topic)

Just about every single one has two versions, a free, and a paid.

NONE of which block you from said content.

 

I dont have a problem with the monitization method other the app though.

If you dont like it or dont feel that it is worth your time then dont purchase it and deal with the ads. Most of the time the ads are on the very bottom and doesnt hurt the experience that you are getting for free.

But a paywall is the worst solution. 

Yes, there is a 24hr return thing but I wonder how long that deal would last.

This is another one of my opinions, I dont think 24hrs is long enough because it takes many hrs ingame to really test how a mod feels and not everybody has the chance to play skyrim for many hours in one day or at all due to other issues.

 

EDIT: Dont you dare pull the "YouTubers make money off content" thing. 

Yes, YouTubers get paid but it isnt the same in terms of the monitization methods.

YouTube ads are passive. If you REALLY dont want them then use AdBlock. 

There are a few different way to monitize on YouTube in terms of ads. You can have the little banner at the bottom, watch an ad for 5sec then have it be skipable, or have an unskipable ad.

 

I hate exclusives on consoles. The "Nexus Exclusive" thing is kinda annoying but that is what I use any not everyone chooses to use the nexus but the same thing goes for "Steam Exclusives". I would likely avoid using the workshop for skyrim mods because many of the mods have issues such as deleted nav meshes, dirty plugins and/or deleted objects which we all know can cause some pretty major issues under some circumstances.

I think I am done, take what you.

 

TL;DR this can be good but it is a very slippery slope. That I will probably avoid except for the MUST HAVES and when the price is worth it.

I'll likely pay the minimum and donate the difference between the recommended and minimum amount directly to author.

 

 

EDIT: I took at the recommend price for Wet and Cold is $5.00 which is completely absurd.

The min is 99 cents, I wonder how low it can actually go. ~apparently 30 cents

 

EDIT2: People need to stop posting that damn ascii art because you are not helping anyone.

[oqhansoloqo]

 

EDIT: I took at the recommend price for Wet and Cold is $5.00 which is completely absurd.

The min is 99C, I wonder how low it can actually go.

 

Some said they saw it go as low as $0.30 for a minimum payment for a mod, but then I also saw someone say that it won't actually let you pay less than $1.  I don't know how true that all is, but that's what I remember reading.

[A_Dim_Mismatch]

I don't see this succeeding mostly because of how unwieldy the Steam Workshop is for using mods anyway. I'd avoided it as much as possible and that was before the paid mods were released. My guess is that this is also the case for the vast majority of mod users.

[TechAngel85]

 

Chesko wrote about the reason he decided to go forth with this: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s53/sh/3c4f3e29-9b4e-41cf-9a72-1b3ed9f70c62/c727dccbb3398aebb5946afac7faaaea

I have the upmost respect for Chesko for this open letter.

[kryptopyr]

In looking at it, the minimum amount seems to be $0.30.

[EssArrBee]

The Blazing Ringsword is $.25. I think that may be the lowest. Maybe that's just in 'Merica.

[Marthenil]

Does the price really matter, though? :(

[keithinhanoi]

I've been reading a good number of posts here and there from mod authors stating that they are planning / considering pulling their mods due to concerns that someone may try to steal their work by posting it on Steam as paid mod. For example, nivea, author of Winter Is Coming - Cloaks and many other Oblivion & FO mods, said s/he is considering not to offer her/his mods freely anymore.

Also, many mod authors, like @fore (as has been mentioned) and nivea, are throwing up their "my mod / resources can't be used in your paid user content" warnings.

But what about people who haven't said anything one way or the either? An example, from Wet & Cold v2.0's list of credits (only available on isoku's web page and not on the Steam Workshop entry):
 

Credits

volvaga0 for his cloaks, fur cloaks and hoods.
SparrowPrince for his original Get Wet implementation.
verteiron for the list of dialogue animation events.
trebtreb for information regarding possible snowy shader issues.
lorelai2009 for her fur cloaks.
Chesko for his support.
drsoupiii for his knapsacks: Knapsack Backpacks.
Arthmoor for his work on Run For Your Lives.

 

Of the above list, only volvaga0 is listed as an author of Wet & Cold v2.0 on Steam Workshop. Chesko and Arthmoor both have paid user content up, so let's assume they're okay with whatever intangibles they provided being included in this paid mod.

Interestingly, this credits list is shorter than the one for W&C v1.422 on Nexus, and looking at the changelog for W&C v2.0 it seems that some assets from other modders were removed to "streamline the mod", but it still raises some questions:

Were all the others beside volvaga0, Chesko, and Arthmoor in the above list contacted before Wet and Cold v2.0 was posted as a paid mod to check whether they agreed to their work / intangibles being used in a mod for which isoku could receive money?

(Regardless of the answer to the above question) Will any of these people besides volvaga0 receive some portion of the 25% of payout over $100 that isoku receives?

The Dark One has already asked these things - from a theoretical perspective - in his Nexus news post a month ago, but now it's reality, and strangely they remain unanswered:
 

How many mods on the Nexus use assets made by other mod authors? How many are made better by this? Such assets are used with the express permission of the creators of those assets. If a mod author came to you and asked if he could use some of your work in their mod that they were planning to sell for $5, would you feel more or less inclined to give him that permission? Would you, perhaps rightly, ask for a cut of the proceeds, a revenue share of your own? If you're one of those great authors who releases your mods freely for others to make use of in their mods, or a modder's resource developer, are you going to think about revisiting all your permissions in light of money entering the modding community? Are you still thinking about being so generous with your work?

How many mods have been developed by a team of mod authors? Lots of people working together to develop something amazing. Look at Nehrim or Falskaar, two epic, highly rated mods made by extensive groups of modders. I think a lot of us will have said at one point or another, either about those mods or about others, "I'd definitely pay for this". And my god, there are so many mods out there that are so good, so professional, so well done that yes, I'd pay for them in an instant! I mean, once you get SkyUI you don't ever want to think about going back to the way it was before again, right? But how are you going to sort out who gets what from selling such mods? We get lots of drama now, without any money changing hands, over permissions and credits, I don't even want to think how horrible it would be to try and sort out such issues when money is involved. That's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Valve thought of this, and so they allow a paid mod uploader to add Contributors, as explained on the Steam Workshop's web page explaining paid user content.

However, I don't see any evidence that there's an vetting process for mods uploaded as paid content. Valve's approach is not pro-active, but rather user-dependent - after the fact, by way of a DCMA Takedown Notice form that anyone can use.

This form is a bit forboding, as it makes it clear that people can be liable for damages if they "knowingly" make a false infringement claim. But I wonder who actually handles the burden of proof?

Further to that, if someone takes ("steals") a mod freely available on Nexus and then uploads it as paid user content on the Steam Workshop, will DCMA Takedown requests be ignored if the original mod author hasn't included a clear written copyright notice? And how is it handled if a mod author has used the work / resources of others with permission - but that permission was only given while the mod using those resources was given freely, and no permission was secured again before the mod was uploaded as paid user content.

And then, even after securing permissions, if a user has opted to use Valve's add Contributors feature to share any revenue, what happens with contributors who do not have Steam user account (and do not wish to have one, for that matter)? How will they receive what is due to them?

Finally, what about paid user content mods which have "hooks" into other mods, instead of directly using assets or content. For example, they provide an MCM / SkyUI menu, or they make use of items added by other mods if those mods are found in the load order.

Valve's line on this (again from the web page explaining paid user content) is the following:

Specify Required mods

 

If your creation builds on another mod or utilizes content from another mod, you should first ask their permission. Once you’ve done that, you can note the requirement on your Workshop page so customers can be notified if they lack the required mod before purchase.

 

What do they mean by "should first ask their permission"??? If no permission is obtained, then what is the recourse for the authors of those other mods. If permission is not required, mods which solely combine elements of other (required) mods can be sold without any liability to share revenues with the authors of those other mods, from what I'm understanding by Valve's statement here.

I see this all being very very murky and unclear, and having great potential to be divisive to the point of destroying the cooperative relationships that many different mod creators have fostered over time.

Edited April 24, 2015 by keithinhanoi

[Marthenil]

Valve has been almost nonexistent in terms of copyright issues in games. It's true for Greenlight, some workshop mods and will also probably be true for the paid for mods. 

 

Most of the work will be done by the community, but still, stuff can slip between the cracks, especially for stuff under the hood of a file, so to speak.

 

 

 

EDIT: Also, I'd like to link to a post, which referenced Creation Kit EULA, which states that mod authors don't really own anything published after the use of Creation Kit to import in game.  But I can't find it right now.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Marthenil

[Nozzer66]

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see the state of play. 

 

I wont install Steam on my machine again, and I wont be going near Nexus either. (The latter is more to stop temptation into reinstalling St*am. See I now even refuse to type it.)