DynDOLOD 3.00 Alpha 182

[sheson]

12 hours ago, z929669 said:

I need a lesson on external/internal billboards; I've read the doc many times, but want to understand better with defaults:

Billboard2=DynDOLOD_flat_2x2_lod.nif
Billboard3=DynDOLOD_flat_3x2_lod.nif
Billboard4=Internal
Billboard5=Internal
Billboard6=Internal

In the past, I found (and assumed) that setting 'billboard' at any LOD level produces what seems like a flat, single-plane billboard (maybe has two planes? But same single texture on all sides?). Setting billboard2 has always yielded better results by allowing use of the billboard normals.

Question: Does billboard2 allow the 2x2 NIF to use all four HD billboard textures? How exactly does this differ from billboard4 (which evidently equals billboard5 and billboard6 under default config as noted above)? I read about sphere vs flat normals, but wondering if internal uses all four billboard textures? I assume that billboard2/3 should always give the potentially best result, but I want to confirm my assumptions.

Lookup the Billboard definitions in the DynDOLOD INI for the game mode you are using to see which BillboardX uses what.

Object LOD meshes always use the normal map atlas textures. All Billboards use all the HD billboard textures. The different billboards use a different number of planes.
So , all Billboards will make use of _1 and _2.diffuse and normal map texture. Billboard3 would make use of _3 if there were one.

Billboard1 and Billboard2 should have identical results. It might be possible Billboard2 has a different base brightness (vertex color).

As mentioned before Billboard1 and Billboard4 are best suited for HD billboards. The Billboard1 uses 2 planes, Billboard4 uses 4 planes.
I suggest to generate ultra tree LOD with BillboardX for all LOD levels and to take screenshots of the same location at morning/midday/sun for comparison.

9 hours ago, ST3PSH4RK said:

Can you share this script again please, I'm having the exact same issue with Erikur's house.

As a logged in user you should be able to download attachments.

However, the rule is already included in the newer DynDOLOD 3 Alpha versions since then. Always use the latest version available.

If it doesn't apply when clicking low, medium, high the plugin name might need to be different.

[ST3PSH4RK]

Yup, solved. I'm such a dummy.  

I have been clicking my own preset on the second pass and it wasn't updating the script for OCS.

Thanks again sheson, now I can fully start a playthrough for a thorough test.

[z929669]

7 hours ago, sheson said:

Lookup the Billboard definitions in the DynDOLOD INI for the game mode you are using to see which BillboardX uses what.

Object LOD meshes always use the normal map atlas textures. All Billboards use all the HD billboard textures. The different billboards use a different number of planes.
So , all Billboards will make use of _1 and _2.diffuse and normal map texture. Billboard3 would make use of _3 if there were one.

Billboard1 and Billboard2 should have identical results. It might be possible Billboard2 has a different base brightness (vertex color).

As mentioned before Billboard1 and Billboard4 are best suited for HD billboards. The Billboard1 uses 2 planes, Billboard4 uses 4 planes.
I suggest to generate ultra tree LOD with BillboardX for all LOD levels and to take screenshots of the same location at morning/midday/sun for comparison.

I must've grabbed the definitions from the doc rather than DynDOLOD_SSE.ini. So this is what I show for Alpha 39:

Billboard1=Internal
Billboard2=DynDOLOD_flat_2x2_lod.nif
Billboard3=DynDOLOD_flat_3x2_lod.nif
Billboard4=DynDOLOD_flat_4x2_lod.nif
Billboard5=Internal
Billboard6=LODGen_flat_lod.nif

... which makes more sense with what you are saying.

SO ... under these definitions, Billboard1 (and Billboard5) should be same as Billboard2 outside of the latter defining "sphere normals" -- how does this relate to vertex colors? EDIT: I see now that this may be because vertex colors can be set in the external model

Also, I don't understand how "Billboard1 or Billboard4 are the best suited for HD billboards with normal maps." -- since: " all Billboards will make use of _1 and _2.diffuse and normal map texture." Perhaps it's differences in the esoteric 'internal' model versus the defined 'external' models? I cannot inspect the former for comparison against the latter.

Since those are DynDOLOD INI settings, I assume that TexGen doesn't create more/less tree billboards for any given tree in relation to these setting but rather DynDOLOD uses these billboards according to these settings.

'four' planes math/counts confuses me, given that I have seen TexGen only create 5 textures per tree --> 1 'front' diffuse + 1 front_1 diffuse + 1 front_1 normal + 1 side_2 diffuse + 1 side_2 normal (I 'think' this is correct?):

• How/when is 1 front diffuse used?
• DynDOLOD_flat_2x2_lod.nif and internal both use 1 front_1 diffuse + 1 front_1 normal on one plane (two sided) and 1 side_2 diffuse + 1 side_2 normal on the other (also two sided)?
  • How could DynDOLOD_flat_4x2_lod.nif be any different? It still uses these same four textures, no? (4 x 2 = 8, but we only have 4)
• Lastly, what INI mechanism causes TexGen to create a third diffuse + normal set ('_3')? ... and I don't see a DynDOLOD_flat_6x3_lod.nif, which would complete the pattern for me.

I will try to discover what you and the doc are saying by generating under varying conditions as you say (comparing output and screens), but any help in clarifying the details I am obviously not understanding (or over-complicating?) would be appreciated. i will test using suggestions found in ../DynDOLOD-Standalone.3.00-Alpha-39/DynDOLOD/docs/trees.ultra/DynDOLOD-Trees.html

[sheson]

2 hours ago, z929669 said:

I must've grabbed the definitions from the doc rather than DynDOLOD_SSE.ini. So this is what I show for Alpha 39:

Billboard1=Internal
Billboard2=DynDOLOD_flat_2x2_lod.nif
Billboard3=DynDOLOD_flat_3x2_lod.nif
Billboard4=DynDOLOD_flat_4x2_lod.nif
Billboard5=Internal
Billboard6=LODGen_flat_lod.nif

... which makes more sense with what you are saying.

SO ... under these definitions, Billboard1 (and Billboard5) should be same as Billboard2 outside of the latter defining "sphere normals" -- how does this relate to vertex colors? EDIT: I see now that this may be because vertex colors can be set in the external model

Also, I don't understand how "Billboard1 or Billboard4 are the best suited for HD billboards with normal maps." -- since: " all Billboards will make use of _1 and _2.diffuse and normal map texture." Perhaps it's differences in the esoteric 'internal' model versus the defined 'external' models? I cannot inspect the former for comparison against the latter.

Since those are DynDOLOD INI settings, I assume that TexGen doesn't create more/less tree billboards for any given tree in relation to these setting but rather DynDOLOD uses these billboards according to these settings.

'four' planes math/counts confuses me, given that I have seen TexGen only create 5 textures per tree --> 1 'front' diffuse + 1 front_1 diffuse + 1 front_1 normal + 1 side_2 diffuse + 1 side_2 normal (I 'think' this is correct?):

• How/when is 1 front diffuse used?
• DynDOLOD_flat_2x2_lod.nif and internal both use 1 front_1 diffuse + 1 front_1 normal on one plane (two sided) and 1 side_2 diffuse + 1 side_2 normal on the other (also two sided)?
  • How could DynDOLOD_flat_4x2_lod.nif be any different? It still uses these same four textures, no? (4 x 2 = 8, but we only have 4)
• Lastly, what INI mechanism causes TexGen to create a third diffuse + normal set ('_3')? ... and I don't see a DynDOLOD_flat_6x3_lod.nif, which would complete the pattern for me.

I will try to discover what you and the doc are saying by generating under varying conditions as you say (comparing output and screens), but any help in clarifying the details I am obviously not understanding (or over-complicating?) would be appreciated. i will test using suggestions found in ../DynDOLOD-Standalone.3.00-Alpha-39/DynDOLOD/docs/trees.ultra/DynDOLOD-Trees.html

There is nothing esoteric about the internal billboard. It existed before external billboards was a thing and it is created programmatically ever since.

The internal billboard also sets sphere normal IF HD billboards detected. If only traditional billboards without normal map textures are installed, the normals are "fixed" to better mimic traditional tree LOD lighting. The vertex colors/brightness etc. of internal billboards are controlled via the DynDOLOD flatLOD settings.

Billboard1 and Billboard4 are best suited for HD Billboards because all tests are done with the automatic Billboard1 and because Billboard4 uses 4 planes, e.g. no double sided 2 planes - just like the  trunks of the included hybrids are made with 4 planes. Check the NIFsin NifSkope makes it obvious. With 4 planes there are no more backlighting issues that come with the 2-sided flag. However, it doubles the triangles from 4 -> 8 per tree.

Look at the default texture names in the external billboard NIF to know which plane uses which billboard. Obviously front/back and left/right side views can each use the same billboard texture for simplification. If a plane defines a name that does not exist (for example _3) _1 is used.

TexGen can not create a third diffuse. Correct, TexGen does not care about DynDOLOD INI settings.

[z929669]

2 hours ago, sheson said:

There is nothing esoteric about the internal billboard. It existed before external billboards was a thing and it is created programmatically ever since.

The internal billboard also sets sphere normal IF HD billboards detected. If only traditional billboards without normal map textures are installed, the normals are "fixed" to better mimic traditional tree LOD lighting. The vertex colors/brightness etc. of internal billboards are controlled via the DynDOLOD flatLOD settings.

Billboard1 and Billboard4 are best suited for HD Billboards because all tests are done with the automatic Billboard1 and because Billboard4 uses 4 planes, e.g. no double sided 2 planes - just like the  trunks of the included hybrids are made with 4 planes. Check the NIFsin NifSkope makes it obvious. With 4 planes there are no more backlighting issues that come with the 2-sided flag. However, it doubles the triangles from 4 -> 8 per tree.

Look at the default texture names in the external billboard NIF to know which plane uses which billboard. Obviously front/back and left/right side views can each use the same billboard texture for simplification. If a plane defines a name that does not exist (for example _3) _1 is used.

TexGen can not create a third diffuse. Correct, TexGen does not care about DynDOLOD INI settings.

Thanks for your continued patience in explaining these things seemingly tirelessly ....

Haven't tested in game yet, but looking at the Flat NIFs packaged with DynDOLOD 3 Alpha 39:

• DynDOLOD_flat_2x2_lod.nif - uses billboard_1 & billboard_1_n files on one plane (double sided) and billboard_2 & billboard_2_n files on the other plane (double sided)
• DynDOLOD_flat_4x2_lod.nif - uses billboard_1 & billboard_1_n files on EACH side of one plane (NOT double sided) and billboard_2 & billboard_2_n files on EACH side of the other plane (NOT double sided)

... so 'internal' (Billboard1 & Billboard5 by default) defines a NIF programmatically that behaves like DynDOLOD_flat_4x2_lod.nif or DynDOLOD_flat_2x2_lod.nif ... maybe neither? Still wrestling with the usefulness of 'internal' when you have provided seemingly all of the most applicable external NIFs.

If I want the potentially 'best' result with tree billboards in object LOD4, in theory, should I be setting 'billboard' or 'billboard4' at LOD4? Is 'billboard' same as 'billboard1'?

Is Billboard6 (DynDOLOD_flat_lod.nif by default, double sided, flat normals) used if/when I only have a single (e.g., front) billboard & billboard_n? Sort of a rare "just in case needed" scenario?

[sheson]

On 8/25/2021 at 8:59 PM, z929669 said:

Thanks for your continued patience in explaining these things seemingly tirelessly ....

Haven't tested in game yet, but looking at the Flat NIFs packaged with DynDOLOD 3 Alpha 39:

• DynDOLOD_flat_2x2_lod.nif - uses billboard_1 & billboard_1_n files on one plane (double sided) and billboard_2 & billboard_2_n files on the other plane (double sided)
• DynDOLOD_flat_4x2_lod.nif - uses billboard_1 & billboard_1_n files on EACH side of one plane (NOT double sided) and billboard_2 & billboard_2_n files on EACH side of the other plane (NOT double sided)

... so 'internal' (Billboard1 & Billboard5 by default) defines a NIF programmatically that behaves like DynDOLOD_flat_4x2_lod.nif or DynDOLOD_flat_2x2_lod.nif ... maybe neither? Still wrestling with the usefulness of 'internal' when you have provided seemingly all of the most applicable external NIFs.

If I want the potentially 'best' result with tree billboards in object LOD4, in theory, should I be setting 'billboard' or 'billboard4' at LOD4? Is 'billboard' same as 'billboard1'?

Is Billboard6 (DynDOLOD_flat_lod.nif by default, double sided, flat normals) used if/when I only have a single (e.g., front) billboard & billboard_n? Sort of a rare "just in case needed" scenario?

What you should wrestle with is the uselessness of Billboard2.

The internal billboard has 2 planes.
It uses fixed normals and the FlatLODVertexColor from the INI if a billboard has no normal map.
It uses sphered normals and the FlatLODWithNormalMapVertexColor from the INI if a billboard has a normal map, e.g. HD billboards.

Billboard4 will be the best visual option if HD billboards are installed for any LOD level at the expense of double the triangles required for the billboard tree LOD in object. Probably no big deal for modern hardware. Peanuts compared to grass LOD.

Old mesh rules Billboard = Billboard1

LODGen_flat_lod.nif is the same file shipping with xLODGen. If you check it it NifSkope, you will see it has 2 double sided planes, but with only one texture (so _1 is used only in case HD billboards are installed). It's in case a user wants to replicate the visual results with xLODGen.

[ex0-tekk]

Hi Sheson, just a minor issue i'm having, any reason why I am getting this since updating from 2.96 to 3.0??

<Error: Invalid path C:\Diabolist VR\1.DVR\mods\TexGenx64 Output\>

[00:24] Resetting invalid path to C:\Diabolist VR\Base Modding Tools\00. DynDOLOD 3.00-32382-Alpha-39-1629185779\DynDOLOD\TexGen_Output\

 The path is most certainly valid, I've tried to resolve it in diff ways, but no go, I've always used the same texgen / dyndo setup in MO2 with Dyn 2.96 and below without issues, thanks for any help with this!

[sheson]

2 hours ago, ex0-tekk said:

Hi Sheson, just a minor issue i'm having, any reason why I am getting this since updating from 2.96 to 3.0??

<Error: Invalid path C:\Diabolist VR\1.DVR\mods\TexGenx64 Output\>

[00:24] Resetting invalid path to C:\Diabolist VR\Base Modding Tools\00. DynDOLOD 3.00-32382-Alpha-39-1629185779\DynDOLOD\TexGen_Output\

 The path is most certainly valid, I've tried to resolve it in diff ways, but no go, I've always used the same texgen / dyndo setup in MO2 with Dyn 2.96 and below without issues, thanks for any help with this!

Read the first post which logfiles to include when making a post.

The output path should be outside of special OS folders like 'Programs Files' or 'Program Files (x86)', User, Documents, Desktop, Download and also not in SteamApps, game or any mod manager folders.

[Tetrol88]

Unimpressed with trying to run 3.00. Non LOD related errors being picked up in mods I have run for ages (and not rejected by Dyndolod), and Dyndolod just rejects them. If I wanted the police I would call them. 

[ex0-tekk]

ya, also very unimpressed, picking up on errors it shouldn't be..... this Dyn 3 is waaaay too ignorant and picky, can't use my own output locations like i could with 2.96 and also cant seem to create ANY dyndolod without silly errors like this! 

Unresolved FormID [02006718] [Content] [02006718] < Error: Could not be resolved 2 >XATR - Attach Ref Error in Dawnguard.esm [REFR:02015DC3] (places sc_towerfloatingrocks02 [STAT:02010BAD] in GRUP Cell Temporary Children of DLC01SoulCairnCraterKeeper [CELL:02002C75] (in DLC01SoulCairn "Soul Cairn" [WRLD:02001408] at 6,3))

i am NOT messing with vanilla files to appease a 3rd party tool..... back to Dyn 2.96 i go!

Edited August 28, 2021 by ex0-tekk

[sheson]

2 hours ago, Tetrol88 said:

Unimpressed with trying to run 3.00. Non LOD related errors being picked up in mods I have run for ages (and not rejected by Dyndolod), and Dyndolod just rejects them. If I wanted the police I would call them. 

If broken plugins or badly made mods cause error messages, then the broken plugin or badly made mod is the problem and not the messenger. 

There is no such thing as "non LOD related errors". Errors are  problems that prevent the patching process from running without... errors.

DynDOLOD is a patcher based on xEdit. If you believe the xEdit error check is making wrong reports about errors, I suggest to make a bug report on the xEdit discord. 
If you believe DynDOLOD is making a wrong error report, see the first post what logfile to include when making posts.
If you need help fixing errors in plugins or the load order, see the first post what logfiles to include when making posts and ask qualified questions about it.

[ex0-tekk]

these errors never happened with 2.96 ?? 

3.0 just feels overreaching

Edited August 28, 2021 by ex0-tekk

[sheson]

9 minutes ago, ex0-tekk said:

these errors never happened with 2.96 ?? 

If you believe the xEdit error check is making wrong reports about errors, I suggest to make a bug report on the xEdit discord. 
If you believe DynDOLOD is making a wrong error report, see the first post what logfile to include when making posts.
If you need help fixing errors in plugins or the load order, see the first post what logfiles to include when making posts and ask qualified questions about it.

[ex0-tekk]

i post an error when i get an error....but either way , 2.96 works for me, 3.0 does not .... i dont have time to troubleshoot this tool, i'll wait till this is a working beta version

Edited August 28, 2021 by ex0-tekk

[sheson]

17 minutes ago, ex0-tekk said:

i post an error when i get an error....but either way , 2.96 works for me, 3.0 does not .... i dont have time to troubleshoot this tool, i'll wait till this is a working beta version

If there are broken plugins or mods in the load orders and they are reported properly by DynDOLOD 3 alpha, then there is no bug and everything is working as it should.

Errors in the load order need to be fixed regardless of which tool reports them. Ignoring errors in the load order or silencing the messenger is just wasting time.