SKYRIMSE STEP Wabbajack?

[crediblezephyre]

Sorry if this is a silly question but is there any plan to do a wabbajack installer for STEP? Is that even possible?

[TechAngel85]

One of the devs has gotten our permission to put up the STEP LE Guide v2.10.0 (current LE Guide), and I'm sure they'll put up the v3.0 Guide when it's released. However, no wabbajack is planned for SE at this time.

[theblackman]

However, no wabbajack is planned for SE at this time.

The logical question here is: why not?  Wabbajack would seem to be a natural fit for STEP, especially given that STEP for SE is more tightly focused than previous incarnations.

[z929669]

First, it requires extra work :)

 

It would also distribute our guide from a source redundant with what we already offer here.

 

Our goal is to not only provide a guide but a forum and a more versatile method of guide building and maintenance using a wiki. We collect and compile as much relevant info as possible and try to focus more on the why and how of building and testing a setup. We'd rather be a resource for Wabbajack users and authors in addition to people that are trying to learn, tweak, and test. Step is more a "hobby site" with some hopefully reliable and useful info.

[theblackman]

First, it requires extra work :)

How? And so does an integration with ModPicker.

 

It would also distribute our guide from a source redundant with what we already offer here.

I don't follow this point, sorry.

 

Our goal is to not only provide a guide but a forum and a more versatile method of guide building and maintenance using a wiki. We collect and compile as much relevant info as possible and try to focus more on the why and how of building and testing a setup. We'd rather be a resource for Wabbajack users and authors in addition to people that are trying to learn, tweak, and test. Step is more a "hobby site" with some hopefully reliable and useful info.

What's missing here is consideration of what the community/STEP users want.  If 90% of STEP users would like a Wabbajack installer, would you still take the same stance as you have above?  

 

And it's irrelevant that STEP is a hobby site.  People still value their time when they are engaged with their hobbies - if there's a quicker, more effective way to avoid the mundane stuff, most would implement it.

 

We collect and compile as much relevant info as possible and try to focus more on the why and how of building and testing a setup. 

Take a look at the STEP guide.  It's a what to do.  Clicking on links and hitting 'download' isn't a hobby.  Sure, some of us get into the detail of why certain things are being done but it's a means to an end, not an end in itself.

 

I think you're confusing the process with the goal.

[TechAngel85]

How? And so does an integration with ModPicker.

Mod Picker? You're a bit outdated in your information. I suggest a look through the more recent announcements. 

 

I don't follow this point, sorry.

Meaning we're already maintaining and distributing the Guide via our wiki and doing so via Wabbajack would be redundant.

 

What's missing here is consideration of what the community/STEP users want.  If 90% of STEP users would like a Wabbajack installer, would you still take the same stance as you have above?  

 

And it's irrelevant that STEP is a hobby site.  People still value their time when they are engaged with their hobbies - if there's a quicker, more effective way to avoid the mundane stuff, most would implement it.

This is borderline entitlement and rude...now I'm going to try to remember this isn't Nexus in my reply, but note that I have taken some offense to this.

 

People do value their time...your own words, however, are you being considerate of our time? Are you missing the consideration that your asking a team of two to give up what little free time they have? We already spend most of that time on the site/Guide and what you're asking is that we now take more time, time away from our families or doing something other than modding, to maintain a second iteration of the Guide that we already give for free?

 

Why? Seamingly for no other reason than it's easier and faster...translation...lazier.

 

Take a look at the STEP guide.  It's a what to do.  Clicking on links and hitting 'download' isn't a hobby.  Sure, some of us get into the detail of why certain things are being done but it's a means to an end, not an end in itself.

 

I think you're confusing the process with the goal.

Huh?   Yeah. It is...so?

 

"Guide" is defined as:

• Something, such as a pamphlet, that offers basic information or instruction.
• Something that serves to direct or indicate.
• something that provides a person with guiding information.

I didn't find any definition saying that a Guide is anything other than what we're already providing. What you're asking for is not a "guide". It's a handout. I don't think you know much about what STEP is, our philosophies, our methods, our history...our passion. That is very apparent with your statements here.

 

 

 

Now that I addressed that, you missed something vital in your reading...

"One of the devs has gotten our permission to put up the STEP LE Guide v2.10.0 (current LE Guide), and I'm sure they'll put up the v3.0 Guide when it's released."

 

There are no "we" or "us" in my that reply. Taking the post that I was replying to into context, it should be obvious that...

"One of the Wabbajack devs has gotten STEP's permission to put up the STEP LE Guide v2.10.0, and I'm sure that developer will put up the v3.0 Guide when it's released."

 

Translation....we (STEP) aren't doing anything. The wabbajack devs will be putting it up...if and when they desire. They have permission.

[theblackman]

I'm well aware of the recent announcement.  You've misunderstood my comment, the gist of which is that any new integration requires work.

 

Wabbajck wouldn't be redundant as it automates the repetitive tasks and saves time.

 

This is borderline entitlement and rude...now I'm going to try to remember this isn't Nexus in my reply, but note that I have taken some offense to this.

People do value their time...your own words, however, are you being considerate of our time? Are you missing the consideration that your asking a team of two to give up what little free time they have? We already spend most of that time on the site/Guide and what you're asking is that we now take more time, time away from our families or doing something other than modding, to maintain a second iteration of the Guide that we already give for free?

This is a ridiculous over-reaction, frankly.  I have previously supported STEP monetarily and I continue to support STEP by recommending your guide on the Nexus and elsewhere to people having problems modding Skyrim.  Accusing me of borderline entitlement, given these facts, is insulting especially given that the efforts that I have made are in recognition of the work the STEP team has done in the community.  

 

If asking what the community wants constitutes 'entitlement' to you, then perhaps you should reacquaint yourself with what a 'community' actually is.

 

Further, I've previously offered you my help, especially on the technical side but I have been ignored.  Twice.  I have developed the distinct impression that you are disinclined to bring on new team members with fresh ideas and my view has only been further confirmed by your hostility here. 

 

And I am being considerate of your time.  Automating part of the modding process reduces the potential for human error to occur and therefore reduces support calls.

 

This should be of interest to you personally given your recent announcement of pulling back, citing Nexus users as one reason, a reason I am sympathetic towards as a mod author and frequenter of the Nexus.

 

And nobody is suggesting that all the work needs to be done by just two of you.  That is a restriction you have imposed upon yourselves.

 

 

Why? Seamingly for no other reason than it's easier and faster...translation...lazier.

Easier and faster does not equal lazier.  That logic does not follow and is inconsistent with your previous comments about being considerate of people's time.

 

The main reason is that it saves everyone time.

 

"Guide" is defined as:

• Something, such as a pamphlet, that offers basic information or instruction.
• Something that serves to direct or indicate.
• something that provides a person with guiding information.

I didn't find any definition saying that a Guide is anything other than what we're already providing. What you're asking for is not a "guide".

So you're saying that STEP can't evolve because of a word?  Again, that's an artificial restriction you've imposed upon yourself.  And the 'handout' comment was unnecessary and inaccurate.

 

 

 

I don't think you know much about what STEP is, our philosophies, our methods, our history...our passion.

This is an erroneous assumption that could have been avoided merely by asking.

 

As a supporter of STEP for many years, I've found your response disappointing, presumptive, close-minded and lacking in goodwill. Much of what you've written is you reacting to what you think I mean or just making assumptions without evidence.  You would benefit from a fresh perspective given the artificial and unnecessary constraints you adhere to.  

 

I'm sure if we had this conversation in person, it would have been much more positive and productive.

 

As it is, I reject the unnecessary tone and much of the content of your response for the reasons given.

[DoubleYou]

I don't think we are close-minded to the idea of developing a Wabbajack installer. We simply have no experience using that tool, and it would take time to put together whatever kind of script it is necessary to deploy such a tool. I agree it would be vastly useful, and I love automating things. This is the reason I developed BethINI. However, much like the mindset that many people have regarding BethINI, many people like the amount of control and knowledge gained by doing the task manually versus the automated method. And then some people altogether will reject such automated tools as untrustworthy. There is definitely a place for both automated and manual modding. If I had more time, I would learn Wabbajack and deploy it for STEP. It doesn't look like it would be that hard at first glance.

 

As a former member of the STEP Staff group, I know we have nothing against users helping us out! Airbreather developed the StepperUpper utility to make the process semi-automatic in the past.

Edited November 8, 2020 by DoubleYou

[Mercury71]

Being a casual user of the STEP Guide and tools like BetINI i must say i understand the problem with having the guide automated on Wabbajack.

When things are automated like Wabbajack and BethINI (as stated above by DoubleYou) or Mators tools or Wrye Bash pople tend to not make the effort to learn how to identify and solve problems by them selfs.

If Wabbajck realy takes off and becomes the common way of installing large mod list pople will stop learning how to use tools like xEdit for example.

People will overflow Nexus, STEP Forum, AFK Forums, Reddit and what not with questions more thenm ever. Hell! People dont even understan how mod managers work.

Installing a large amount off mods in any game is tricky and anyone that has set there mind to add a few hundred mods to a game really need to know what they are doing.

Most people also adds mods outside off the STEP Guide for there own taste (at least i do and i belive all of you do so to) and then go to forums saying the guide is broken (i have seen that for current Wabbajack lists, STEP Guide, Lexys guide and others).

Following a guide/mod list or using tools like Wabbajack, BethINI, Mator, Wrye, Loot does NOT let you get away with not using xEdit on your loadorder.

Sure, tools like Wabbajack can save some time for download and installation for the users, but i really see it as a waste of time for guide authors like the STEP Team or lets say Dread or Lexy to maintain and service such functionallity.

When installing a lot of mods really it should be done with knowlege, not automated.

Bethesda is selling official mods for those who dont like learning.

[theblackman]

When things are automated like Wabbajack and BethINI (as stated above by DoubleYou) or Mators tools or Wrye Bash pople tend to not make the effort to learn how to identify and solve problems by them selfs.

You have no evidence to substantiate this claim so it's merely your opinion.  The reverse could actually be true.  Further, this claim includes an implicit assumption that everyone should learn how to identify and solve problems themselves.  That's a value judgement that you're trying to impose on people.  The beauty of a tool like BethINI is that, because it essentially represents the collective wisdom of the community (and DoubleYou's efforts, thank you again), it saves people the time and frustration of having to work out what the optimal ini settings are themselves and from making errors in setting values.

 

You're saying that it's somehow better for people to waste time working out or reading about what each setting does themselves.  It isn't.  Most people want to play the game, not spend time diagnosing and fixing errors.

 

 

If Wabbajck realy takes off and becomes the common way of installing large mod list pople will stop learning how to use tools like xEdit for example.

Again, you've got no evidence that this is the case, you just 'feel' like it's true.  I could make the claim that if Wabbajack takes off, more people will learn how to use tools like xEdit and have just as much chance of being right as you with your claim, probably more.

 

People will overflow Nexus, STEP Forum, AFK Forums, Reddit and what not with questions more thenm ever. Hell! People dont even understan how mod managers work.

They will?  How do you know?  I looked into my crystal ball and saw less people overflowing those sites.  Maybe your crystal ball is faulty - take it back for a refund.  And if most people don't know how mod managers work, then using a tool like Wabbajack means that there will be less questions on support forums as the conflicts will already have been resolved by the installer.

 

 

Installing a large amount off mods in any game is tricky and anyone that has set there mind to add a few hundred mods to a game really need to know what they are doing.

Unless you use an installer for a curated, conflict-resolved modlist, then you don't.

 

Most A few people also adds mods outside off the STEP Guide for there own taste (at least i do and i belive all of you do so to) and then go to forums saying the guide is broken (i have seen that for current Wabbajack lists, STEP Guide, Lexys guide and others).

Fixed.

 

Following a guide/mod list or using tools like Wabbajack, BethINI, Mator, Wrye, Loot does NOT let you get away with not using xEdit on your loadorder.

It depends.  Some modlists only require use of xEdit to clean the Bethesda DLC ESMs which you don't actually need to do and in fact many recommend to not do it as it can cause problems.

 

Sure, tools like Wabbajack can save some time for download and installation for the users, but i really see it as a waste of time for guide authors like the STEP Team or lets say Dread or Lexy to maintain and service such functionallity.

You could make exactly the same argument about curated modlists like STEP.  In fact, the irony here is that you could make virtually all your arguments about curated modlists.  And I already stated above that automation reduces the potential for human error to occur thereby reducing support calls.  So it saves users and guide authors time.  Win-win.

 

 

When installing a lot of mods really it should be done with knowlege, not automated.

Fortunately you don't have any right to impose onto other people how they build their modded game or how much knowledge people should have about modding their game.

 

 

Bethesda is selling official mods for those who dont like learning.

<facepalm>  Sorry, but I can't believe you actually wrote this.  I literally cringed.

 

Suffice it to say that I don't agree with anything that you've written, particularly your view that everyone should learn how to mod their game the 'manual' way.  Avoiding or eliminating the potential for problems to occur in the first instance is a better strategy.

 

As a former member of the STEP Staff group, I know we have nothing against users helping us out! Airbreather developed the StepperUpper utility to make the process semi-automatic in the past.

Indeed.  Hence why I was particularly bemused by this comment:

 

Why? Seamingly for no other reason than it's easier and faster...translation...lazier.

[Mercury71]

You have no evidence to substantiate this claim so it's merely your opinion.  The reverse could actually be true.  Further, this claim includes an implicit assumption that everyone should learn how to identify and solve problems themselves.  That's a value judgement that you're trying to impose on people.  The beauty of a tool like BethINI is that, because it essentially represents the collective wisdom of the community (and DoubleYou's efforts, thank you again), it saves people the time and frustration of having to work out what the optimal ini settings are themselves and from making errors in setting values.

 

You're saying that it's somehow better for people to waste time working out or reading about what each setting does themselves.  It isn't.  Most people want to play the game, not spend time diagnosing and fixing errors.

 

Again, you've got no evidence that this is the case, you just 'feel' like it's true.  I could make the claim that if Wabbajack takes off, more people will learn how to use tools like xEdit and have just as much chance of being right as you with your claim, probably more.

They will?  How do you know?  I looked into my crystal ball and saw less people overflowing those sites.  Maybe your crystal ball is faulty - take it back for a refund.  And if most people don't know how mod managers work, then using a tool like Wabbajack means that there will be less questions on support forums as the conflicts will already have been resolved by the installer.

 

Unless you use an installer for a curated, conflict-resolved modlist, then you don't.

Fixed.

It depends.  Some modlists only require use of xEdit to clean the Bethesda DLC ESMs which you don't actually need to do and in fact many recommend to not do it as it can cause problems.

You could make exactly the same argument about curated modlists like STEP.  In fact, the irony here is that you could make virtually all your arguments about curated modlists.  And I already stated above that automation reduces the potential for human error to occur thereby reducing support calls.  So it saves users and guide authors time.  Win-win.

 

Fortunately you don't have any right to impose onto other people how they build their modded game or how much knowledge people should have about modding their game.

 

<facepalm>  Sorry, but I can't believe you actually wrote this.  I literally cringed.

 

Suffice it to say that I don't agree with anything that you've written, particularly your view that everyone should learn how to mod their game the 'manual' way.  Avoiding or eliminating the potential for problems to occur in the first instance is a better strategy.

 

Indeed.  Hence why I was particularly bemused by this comment:

What i write is ofc my opinion. How could it be anything else?

I belive you are very wrong that most STEP users play without adding or extracting other non guide mods to there game. People using the guide (and other guides) ask all the time if this or that mod is compatible.

You have the OPINION that it is a god given human right to have an automated way to install mod lists into their game? That is what you impose.

Many mod authors are getting more and morre tired of people on the Nexus demanding support.

[theblackman]

What i write is ofc my opinion. How could it be anything else?

 

Claims that are made without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

 

I belive you are very wrong that most STEP users play without adding or extracting other non guide mods to there game. People using the guide (and other guides) ask all the time if this or that mod is compatible.

I didn't actually write that - you are misrepresenting what I actually wrote.

 

You have the OPINION that it is a god given human right to have an automated way to install mod lists into their game? That is what you impose.

  Again misrepresenting my arguments.  Please do me the honour, as I did for you, of addressing what I actually wrote and don't strawman my comments.

 

Many mod authors are getting more and morre tired of people on the Nexus demanding support.

What's your point?  I've been in the modding community since ~2006 and this has always been the case.

[TechAngel85]

I'm well aware of the recent announcement.  You've misunderstood my comment, the gist of which is that any new integration requires work.

...

Wabbajck wouldn't be redundant as it automates the repetitive tasks and saves time.

True or not true depending on several developmental factors... However, the point is we're not exploring Wabbajack at this time. We're focused on bringing our platform up to date. A big part of that is just software updates to our current software. However, with that comes required updates to many other things like skins, SWM, extensions, etc. This is our fault for not keeping them more up to date so we're not covering a rather large jump in versions. All this to say, our time is booked until STEP 3.0 releases.

 

In the meantime, the Wabbajack devs already have our permission to put up the Guides. They came to us seeking permission so if they're not already up, you should probably be asking them why. So...I can't make this any clearer:

 

We are not exploring Wabbajack at this time, however, the future is the future.

 

 

This is a ridiculous over-reaction, frankly.  I have previously supported STEP monetarily and I continue to support STEP by recommending your guide on the Nexus and elsewhere to people having problems modding Skyrim.  Accusing me of borderline entitlement, given these facts, is insulting especially given that the efforts that I have made are in recognition of the work the STEP team has done in the community.  

 

If asking what the community wants constitutes 'entitlement' to you, then perhaps you should reacquaint yourself with what a 'community' actually is.

...

As a supporter of STEP for many years, I've found your response disappointing, presumptive, close-minded and lacking in goodwill. Much of what you've written is you reacting to what you think I mean or just making assumptions without evidence.  You would benefit from a fresh perspective given the artificial and unnecessary constraints you adhere to.

...

I'm sure if we had this conversation in person, it would have been much more positive and productive.

I don't mean to insult your contributions or support. I freely admitted that I took some offense to this section of your post any will not apologize for my feelings, as they are my own. Though, I will apologize for any misinterpretation.

 

To understand my perspective...no one really knows just how much time we put into STEP (and in my case mod authoring too). For me, when I'm at full swing, I put 20-40 hrs a week into this project. Adding to that, I got the tone of your post as "insinuation", rather than "inquiry" or "suggestion". "What's missing here is consideration of what the community/STEP users want." This particularly sounded like insinuation that we don't listen to our community when, in fact, we know very well the community wants an automated STEP install. It's nothing new...just new tools. Users have wanted this for years and years and our stance has never changed due to some specific issues around author rights, endorsements, etc. As new tools become available, they may be explored, but will likely never take a priority over our own platform, whatever that may be. You can imagine we're not eager to steer away from it any time soon after the Mod Picker trial and error, which wasted nearly 2 years of potential growth for STEP.

 

However, continued discussion on this will be of no benefit. It's clear you didn't mean the post to read as such. I apologize, again, for the misinterpretation. I'm sure it would have been much more productive in person, as you mentioned.

 

 

Further, I've previously offered you my help, especially on the technical side but I have been ignored.  Twice.  I have developed the distinct impression that you are disinclined to bring on new team members with fresh ideas and my view has only been further confirmed by your hostility here. 

 

And nobody is suggesting that all the work needs to be done by just two of you. That is a restriction you have imposed upon yourselves.

You may have offered to help, nothing specifically that I can recall, but if you weren't responded to or turned down it would have been that the help offered didn't match the help needed, at that time. That would be the only reason I can think of not accepting help. It should be obvious that we'd love more staff by the recent announcement. With that said, I'll expand a bit on this. STEP roles are sort of like positions within a company...

 

90% of users that offer help have no knowledge of wiki development or are fairly new to the STEP Community. These types of offers for help are the "front line workers" and will always be sent one of two paths:

1. Become a Mod Tester; which only requires you have STEP installed to a profile without any added mods for testing. This role's only responsibility is to test mods being suggested by the community within a STEP setup and against the STEP Mandate. Once staff gain some experience within this role, then they can be considered for higher roles with more involvement. However once users see the work involved, 99% of them that take up this role end up MIA. It's not glamorous work, but it's work that ALL of the staff has done at some point because ALL staff beyond this role are expected to know how to mod test and be involved in that process. It's the foundation of what we do and even with automation, such work is necessary. Users than can't cut it in this role, will not be of much use in higher involved roles of the Project. Therefore, it can be considered our "proving ground" for new staff. 
2. Become a Moderator. This role's responsibility is to help moderate the forums and answer support questions. Users considered for this role usually have spent some time within our forum community and haven't had any negative behaviors. Therefore, they are members of the community who have show themselves mature and trustworthy enough to handle moderation tasks. Users of this role are required to be familiar with our Community Citizenship Guidelines, else they wouldn't be very effective moderators as they are entrusted to handle all types of forum moderation, including passing out Warnings when appropriate.

All level of staff are encouraged to create and update wiki content. Only once users have been around for a while, gained some experience, shown responsibility, and shown interest in diving deeper into the Project will staff be promoted into "leadership" roles; Uber Moderator, STEP Staff, and Admin. These positions have higher-level access to the site, tools, and sensitive Project stuff. Therefore, it's obvious the members of these roles would be well respected and trusted members of our community because someone could wreak some havoc, if they desired. This is the same path I took to Admin. I started at the bottom, stuck around, made myself useful because I believed in what the Project was doing, and eventually landed where I am today.

 

Also, we provide plenty opportunity to move up in roles. All staff has to do is ask. If they're not ready, we'll be honest, tell them that, and let them know what they can do to prepare for the role they want. Else, as any of them can attest to, we nag the staff from time to time about their current positions within the Project, whether they want to move up or down, etc. All are within the roles they have chosen for themselves.

[TechAngel85]

Being a casual user of the STEP Guide and tools like BetINI i must say i understand the problem with having the guide automated on Wabbajack.

When things are automated like Wabbajack and BethINI (as stated above by DoubleYou) or Mators tools or Wrye Bash people tend to not make the effort to learn how to identify and solve problems by themselfs.

If Wabbajck really takes off and becomes the common way of installing large mod list people will stop learning how to use tools like xEdit for example.

People will overflow Nexus, STEP Forum, AFK Forums, Reddit and what not with questions more than ever. Hell! People dont even understand how mod managers work.

Installing a large amount off mods in any game is tricky and anyone that has set there mind to add a few hundred mods to a game really need to know what they are doing.

I happen to agree with that. From my personally experience, automation tends to make many users lazier. When I say "lazier", I mean it in the context of "lost information". Everyone is all "automation, automation, automation". Yeah, it makes life easier but, in my experience, the moment the user encounters something the automation "chokes on", is the moment they are up utterly lost. Why? Because they lack the experience and knowledge gained from, what I will just call, "traditional modding". Nexus is already packed full of users that are too "green" to know these things. What are they going to turn to to learn? Automation is the easy path but teaches you little. However, diving into guides and learning the tools will equip those users to handle issues in the future. There is no replacement for this learning and it's for these reason I'm, personally, not a fan of automation. Lost knowledge and a dumbing of the people. That's automation from my perspective...9/10 are going to choose the easier route too...that's just human nature.

 

It's also this "loss of knowledge" (or lack of willingness to learn) from automation that creates more support than it prevents. That's coming from the perspective of helping to run these forums for years and years. Our actual support for the Guides is quite low. Most of the support on these forums go toward other subjects or are outside the scope of the Guides.

[TechAngel85]

Fixed.

Actually, he's right. Most users will add more mods on top of the STEP Guides.

 

 

Fortunately you don't have any right to impose onto other people how they build their modded game or how much knowledge people should have about modding their game.

Didn't read as imposing, but an opinion, as have all of your statements.

 

 

Indeed.  Hence why I was particularly bemused by this comment:

I don't recall a single staff member reporting to actually using STEPupper. It was an idea and experiment by airbreather for an automated version of STEP that he maintained on his own with permission. I, personally, didn't see it as a viable option has it added a lot of maintenance overhead. He upkept it for a time, but didn't last long. I want to say it had some limitations. There has never been a good viable option for automation for STEP.

 

 

 

Lets reign this topic in and keep it to an actual discussion.

• No personal attacks.
• No mistruding of posted contented.
• Post clearly so that your meaning/tone of your post is understood.
• If you're posting an opinion, keep in mind it's an opinion. Your opinion. Others may or not may agree. Discuss, don't argue.