Skyrim Revisited Pre-Release Feedback

[thorgal]

Alternate start is now on   version 3.0.7

Edited November 25, 2015 by thorgal

[Neovalen]

I genuinely wasn't wanting to sound sarcastic. I only mentioned it because when I first started using LOOT I made a lot of noise about the "wrong" orders that it produced until I actually examined what it was in fact producing and found no issues at all.

If I've hit a nerve then I unreservedly apologise.

Well here's the thing... I don't have issues. However, from the above you can see other people are getting different (incorrect) results. Therefore more rules are needed despite me getting lucky because my starting order was "better".

[myarta]

Well, did cstarkey42 compare Vividian Expanded Weathers with the main Vividian esp and see if there were actually any overrides between the two such that the different order matters? I haven't built this guide in a few months so I forget what's inside the two. If so, then I'd submit them to LOOT to see what the bug is. The whole point of LOOT is to liberate you from having to micromanage order lists, and I think its conflict detection works pretty much every time, like GrantSP says. Maybe there's a small bug, if you check cstarkey42's esps, but then they'll patch it and you're back to being okay.

Edited November 25, 2015 by myarta

[cstarkey42]

Well here's the thing... I don't have issues. However, from the above you can see other people are getting different (incorrect) results. Therefore more rules are needed despite me getting lucky because my starting order was "better".

I guess when you think about it it does make sense and isn't even really LOOT's fault.  The two esps in question are custom made, custom named (following your guide) so LOOT couldn't know which is first since the expanded weather plugin doesn't have any dependency on the Vividian ENB plugin.  Going from an earlier comment, I think too many people think LOOT does some sort of T5E analysis of what the plugin does and bases it's construction on any conflicts it finds.  Since that is not the case and it's just using a predefined masterlist and user defined meta-data, it really would have no way to know what order those, or any other custom made/named plugins should be placed in.  In fact, it doesn't even "know" that they are weather related mods so any order it puts them in, relative to themselves and even every other mod in the load order, is purely random.  I've noticed the more mods I add the more likely it is that LOOT just shrugs its shoulders and puts them at the end of the list, whether I think they should go in that "section" of my LO or not.

[myarta]

Oh whoops, maybe I'm exaggerating what it does, then. Is it really just Check masters and put masters first, then apply globally-managed manual list? I really did think it checks to see which plugins have no conflicts before certifying them as irrelevant in their ordering. Is that a myth? If so, my apologies.

[cstarkey42]

Well, did cstarkey42 compare Vividian Expanded Weathers with the main Vividian esp and see if there were actually any overrides between the two such that the different order matters? I haven't built this guide in a few months so I forget what's inside the two. If so, then I'd submit them to LOOT to see what the bug is. The whole point of LOOT is to liberate you from having to micromanage order lists, and I think its conflict detection works pretty much every time, like GrantSP says. Maybe there's a small bug, if you check cstarkey42's esps, but then they'll patch it and you're back to being okay.

Placing expanded weathers before the other vividian weather plugins, in this case the Vividian ENB merge, overrides practically, if not completely, all of the edits expanded weathers makes.  Again, unless I'm way off base here, LOOT is not doing any sort of analysis concerning the internals of your plugins, though it would be awesome if it did.  It'd take a lot longer, but this would be a killer feature to be added to T5E.  Until then you simply must micromanage your LOs.

Oh whoops, maybe I'm exaggerating what it does, then. Is it really just Check masters and put masters first, then apply globally-managed manual list? I really did think it checks to see which plugins have no conflicts before certifying them as irrelevant in their ordering. Is that a myth? If so, my apologies.

As far as I know the closest it gets to doing that is by loading dependent plugins after their masters.  In that regards it is more helpful and autonomous than BOSS was.  Skynet, however, it is not.

Edited November 25, 2015 by cstarkey42

[Monobloc]

Neovalen it seems to be ELFX that creates the dark square on the floor.

 

Any idea from what ?

 

All the meshes patches are installed, frozen heart Inn, winterhold, next to the table.

 

https://www.noelshack.com/2015-48-1448474661-tesv-2015-11-25-18-58-17-10.jpg

https://www.noelshack.com/2015-48-1448474662-tesv-2015-11-25-18-58-17-93.jpg

 

this way.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Monobloc

[GrantSP]

A couple of pages that were given to me to read after I made the change a few months back:

Why LOOT is so much better than BOSS

LOOT FAQ This link is to the last two questions that are specific to this current discussion.

[Darth_mathias]

if it helps people to trobuleshoot there load order; my current load order can always be found in my signature. please do bear in mind that I have quite a few mod on top of SRLE.

 

this link will take you to my MODWat.ch Page https://www.modwat.ch/u/Darth_mathias where my load order can be found

Edited November 25, 2015 by Darth_mathias

[Mator]

@cstarkey42,

 

I found remerge or new merge with auto asset copy don't always copy everything (buggy). This happen especially large mod with lots of files such as NPC mods / follower mods for example. Start fresh mean delete old merge from MO mod folder as well as in Merge plugin list. Exit the Merge plugins. Restart the Merge plugins and create new merge.   

If there's a bug, please report it on the GitHub issues page so I can address it.

 

 

@darkside (and anyone else who'd care to chime in)

 

Well, that didn't work for me either but I think I know why.  At the end of building the merge I realized I should scroll up through the output display (I know, right, sometimes I feel like I've been using a pc for like 2 days of my life! ) and I find that it's only looking for the assets in the folder where the esp is located.  I've always made it a practice to create a new folder, copy all the esps that I am merging over to it, and hide them in the original folder.  Then, when I need to redo a merge I can simply select that folder, run T5E  (now the merge program) and then deselect the folder.  It's saved me countless hours.  Am I really to understand that everyone is going to each individual folder, double clicking it, selecting the tab, moving the esp, rinse and repeat, and then doing it all in reverse?  Every single time?  That's pure insanity to me.  

 

Can someone please tell me what this program has over the merge script?  I thought I liked the program but it's got too many drawbacks compared to running it in T5E, at least as far as it stands now.  I know it was needed to get ICAO to merge correctly but, now that that's being left as is, is there any other major advantage I might miss out on if I use the scripts instead?

 

Thanks.

You're not using the program correctly.  You should NEVER move the plugins out of the mod folder they're installed in.  That folder is the key to how merge plugins copies general assets, so if you want to use the copy general assets option to make a completely standalone "mod" in Mod Organizer, you absolutely have to leave those ESPs in their original folders.

 

I don't really understand what your process for merging is.  Mine is far simpler:

1. My mods in the left pane of MO are organized by category.  (you can also sort by category in MO, if you don't have them in the by-category install order)

2. I select all of the mods I want to merge from a particular category by clicking on the top mod, holding shift, and clicking on the bottom mod.

3. I press SPACE to activate all of the mods.

4. The mods are already in a single solid block in my load order, so I start Merge Plugins, add them to a new merge, resolve any issues with the merge (you can ignore non-contiguous errors if you want), and then build it.

5. I select the block of mods in Mod Organizer and deactivate it.

6. I right-click -> All Mods -> Refresh Mod Organizer's mod list, and then activate the merged mod, which is the last item in the mods list.

 

As you yourself have found, Merge Plugins Standalone has a massive number of advantages over the Merge Plugins Script.  If you're having problems with it, you're probably doing something wrong, because it's pretty solid.

 

That said, the next version will have a plugin selection form (already built) so you can choose not to load certain plugins into the application if you so wish.

 

 

-Mator

Edited November 25, 2015 by Mator

[myarta]

cstarkey42, it appears that I was correct about the fact that LOOT *DOES* assess content in a T5E way, per the FAQ grantsp linked to: "To sort a plugin, BOSS needs it to be added to its masterlist, which is hand-ordered by its maintainers. LOOT instead reads the contents of each plugin to see which plugins conflict, etc. and uses that information to decide on the best ordering. This means that it can sort all plugins without needing them to become recognised first."

 

However, I suppose I don't know how it decides to order those plugins once it decides they conflict yet neither are masters of each other. Perhaps Vividian Weathers just needs Vividian itself as a master so LOOT will put it after. Or we can add that sorting step to the guide, or submit it to the LOOT team for inclusion in their global masterlist. I think reverting to having to specify dozens of orders is an over-reaction.

[Neovalen]

I'm going to start by just adding the loot rule for Vividian ENB Extended after the base esp. Can someone else compare my load order with theirs and see if anything else is off?

[darkside]

I'm going to start by just adding the loot rule for Vividian ENB Extended after the base esp. Can someone else compare my load order with theirs and see if anything else is off?

I don't see anything obviously off. Although, I have REGS and MMO installed as well.

[cstarkey42]

@Mator

 

Thanks for the explanation.  I'm sure I was doing it wrong and probably have been since way before the standalone came out.  I think the problem in my thinking was that I thought that the standalone was grabbing the textures and scripts after MO had loaded them into memory since the esp refers to a file name and didn't seem path dependent.  It never occurred to me that the esp needed to be in the original folder in order for it to work correctly.  The old script still built my translation file and facegen files fine so maybe it didn't always work like this, I don't know.  Thanks for clearing it up for me now though, I've adjusted how I set up creating my merges and everything seems to be working fine now.

[cstarkey42]

cstarkey42, it appears that I was correct about the fact that LOOT *DOES* assess content in a T5E way, per the FAQ grantsp linked to: "To sort a plugin, BOSS needs it to be added to its masterlist, which is hand-ordered by its maintainers. LOOT instead reads the contents of each plugin to see which plugins conflict, etc. and uses that information to decide on the best ordering. This means that it can sort all plugins without needing them to become recognised first."

 

However, I suppose I don't know how it decides to order those plugins once it decides they conflict yet neither are masters of each other. Perhaps Vividian Weathers just needs Vividian itself as a master so LOOT will put it after. Or we can add that sorting step to the guide, or submit it to the LOOT team for inclusion in their global masterlist. I think reverting to having to specify dozens of orders is an over-reaction.

LOOT is much more complex than I would have guessed, it seems.  T5E takes so much longer to load than LOOT does at any point during the process so it still seems crazy to me to think that it's going through every esp as quickly as it does.  The problem, however, is still that, even when it does find a conflict, it doesn't seem that it can always know which esp should prevail.  Between Vividian ENB and Vividian Extended Weathers all it would know is that they edit the same edits.  I don't know under what conditions it would "decide" which fog distance, color edits, etc... should prevail.  The same problem would occur for mods such as Bijin Warmaidens and ESF Companions.  They both edit Aela but how is LOOT to know which should prevail, the edit to the stats and armor or the edits to her appearance?  It would seem you'd still want to micromanage in both cases.  

 

Still thanks for the info, GrantSP.  It is good to know LOOT has more under the hood than a masterlist and looking for master dependencies.  The people who make these applications for us to use are crazy smart.