Trouble understanding grass and LOD generation with additional mods to STEP

[z929669]

Hmm ... I had thought Grass Cache Fixes was recommended in Grass LOD guide, but alas, it is not. @DoubleYou originally constructed that guide, and I contributed, but it seems we ignored GCF ... I assume because that guide was itself the basis for DY's ideas about GCF.

We need to add this piece to the Grass LOD guide, IMO.

We don't mention the relevance of the grass cache files for loaded cells, because it's not all that relevant but for not having grass growing in objects or having grass grown in certain small areas where it's missing ... plus it's a huge file, so it arguably doesn't make much sense for most people to download that unless they are using grass LOD. Perhaps we should. I'll let DY chime in to decide. We could probably mention it's uses, but we tend to avoid providing context where it isn't needed in the Step guides just to reduce maintenance burden for us. Again, maybe that context would be welcome.

[Mousetick]

1 hour ago, z929669 said:

We don't mention the relevance of the grass cache files for loaded cells, because it's not all that relevant but for not having grass growing in objects or having grass grown in certain small areas where it's missing ... plus it's a huge file, so it arguably doesn't make much sense for most people to download that unless they are using grass LOD.

A huge file, are you kidding? 380 MB is really not much compared to all the GBs of textures, or compared to stuff generated by xLODGen and DynDOLOD.

Grass not growing in objects and the performance optimization are pretty nice features to have. Also, as mentioned by DY in the Grass Cache Fixes comments section:

Quote

- SuperDenseGrass ability is preserved if used (I don't personally recommend it)
- ExtendGrassCount ability is preserved if used (not really necessary for most users, but may be for others, especially if using SuperDenseGrass)
- GlobalGrassScale ability is preserved if used (recommended to use this to increase the size of grass without impacting performance)

I don't know which NGIO settings STEP uses for the provided grass cache, so some of those other features may not apply.

I reckon most users probably generate grass LOD, so they'll install it. But for those who don't, there is really no good reason to avoid it. It's a simple matter of downloading the Grass Patch and installing it. There is no configuration change, no deviation from the guide, no explanation/context necessary. IMHO.

[James_Richards]

Yeah, I kinda thought I did something wrong when the literature kept saying "...this is going to be 2GB large!" or I even saw a warning about 3GB. STEP Grass patch is only 847 MB, my grass cache is 870 and none of the grass mods downloaded topped 100. I thought I did something wrong at first, but thought since it matched the size of the STEP patch, I went with it anyway.

Still generating DynDOLOD at the tail end of STEP 2.2.0. Currently 4.5 hours running. But I put that up to the aged CPU I have. So, whatever I did I'll be able to see within an hour if past generation times are to go by. I am beginning to wonder if some of these tools are really optimized for multi-core processing. Oh well. I am not complaining to much. I got the offer letter for my job, now I just wait for background checks for security clearance to complete and I'll be making money.

EDIT
And that didn't work. Still getting floating grass around the estate. I think I know what I did wrong. I removed too many mods modifying the landscape when I generated my grass cache. Well. I am not under a time crunch. So. I'll do it again.

Edited May 23, 2023 by James_Richards

[DoubleYou]

I wrote the Grass LOD guide before I created Grass Cache Fixes and before the Anniversary Edition dropped. It needs to be updated. 

We should be advising everyone to use the grass cache file, as it provides performance benefits and stops grass growing through objects. This is how it was meant to be, but it can be confusing, so I probably didn't communicate this effectively.

Mousetick has explained it all perfectly and is correct on all counts. 

[z929669]

2 hours ago, Mousetick said:

A huge file, are you kidding? 380 MB is really not much compared to all the GBs of textures, or compared to stuff generated by xLODGen and DynDOLOD.

Grass not growing in objects and the performance optimization are pretty nice features to have. Also, as mentioned by DY in the Grass Cache Fixes comments section:

I don't know which NGIO settings STEP uses for the provided grass cache, so some of those other features may not apply.

I reckon most users probably generate grass LOD, so they'll install it. But for those who don't, there is really no good reason to avoid it. It's a simple matter of downloading the Grass Patch and installing it. There is no configuration change, no deviation from the guide, no explanation/context necessary. IMHO.

The Step Grass file had been close to a Gb previously until we decided to compress into BSA. We just never got around to thinking about it again since. I agree with you.

1 hour ago, James_Richards said:

Yeah, I kinda thought I did something wrong when the literature kept saying "...this is going to be 2GB large!" or I even saw a warning about 3GB. STEP Grass patch is only 847 MB, my grass cache is 870 and none of the grass mods downloaded topped 100. I thought I did something wrong at first, but thought since it matched the size of the STEP patch, I went with it anyway.

Still generating DynDOLOD at the tail end of STEP 2.2.0. Currently 4.5 hours running. But I put that up to the aged CPU I have. So, whatever I did I'll be able to see within an hour if past generation times are to go by. I am beginning to wonder if some of these tools are really optimized for multi-core processing. Oh well. I am not complaining to much. I got the offer letter for my job, now I just wait for background checks for security clearance to complete and I'll be making money.

EDIT
And that didn't work. Still getting floating grass around the estate. I think I know what I did wrong. I removed too many mods modifying the landscape when I generated my grass cache. Well. I am not under a time crunch. So. I'll do it again.

I'm pretty sure the pregen is GPU and not CPU limited, but I honestly forget. This is definitely true for DynDOLOD-related processes. Example with Step build: If I have my Radeon Adrenaline and related processes running, grass pregen requires at least two hours on my quite-powerful AMD rig (see sig). Killing these unnecessary processes cuts tht time down to 30 min. Similarly, TexGen requires about 20 min and DynDOLOD takes over 2 hours with AMD 'bloat' processes running on my system. Killing them cuts the time to 2 minutes and ~30 minutes, respectively for those.

I think Adrenaline is beneficial for gameplay, but it just gets in the way of generating grass and LOD. I suspect something analogous to this phenomenon may be at play with your setup. More so than hardware, I'm guessing.

You definitely want all mods that touch landscape enabled ... keep in mind that this applies to any new locations and some mods that wouldn't seem to impact landscape, so I recommend getting your 1.5.97 setup as close as possible to your 1.6.xxx setup.

[z929669]

11 minutes ago, DoubleYou said:

I wrote the Grass LOD guide before I created Grass Cache Fixes and before the Anniversary Edition dropped. It needs to be updated. 

We should be advising everyone to use the grass cache file, as it provides performance benefits and stops grass growing through objects. This is how it was meant to be, but it can be confusing, so I probably didn't communicate this effectively.

Mousetick has explained it all perfectly and is correct on all counts. 

Yeah, we had discussed this early on for 2.1.0 I think and we decided to keep the grass cache separate, due to it's original large size. The rationale was that only those generating grass LOD would need it. Obviously, that changed when GCF became available, but we never acknowledged the relevance for loaded cells without NGIO. I honestly just never thought of it ... robotically updating the guide and plugin minutia without thinking of it (because I always use it).

[James_Richards]

Yeah, I am almost done going through every single mod, reading their STEP instructions and the info on the mod page to make sure it will work with 2.2.0 STEP. I am also using the previously linked list to help find any of the DLL/SKSE mods that have a lower version requirement if they aren't NG, transfer to NTFS drive and boot up the windows VM and let it do its thing. Like I said, I think I know where I went wrong. I replicated the 2.0.0 load order and disabled too many mods. This new setup should do the trick.

Once I build my new computer, I am sure I will benefit from better processing speeds. I got the intel i5-6600k due to it being the processor with the highest IPC at the time. Should have just waited a little longer and got the AM4 released at the time. I would have just had to flash my BIOS and upgrade the CPU. Intel's next "tick" after the 6000's put it on a new socket.
The open AMD drivers are great, but again, going through Proton, things might slow down a bit even on a newer computer. The virtual machine setup with Windows 10, sadly, cannot use passthrough so I am stuck with whatever drivers come with Virtualbox, VMWare or VirtIO/QEMU/KVM. I THINK I found a guide that will let me install Windows 10 to a USB. When I go back to read it, I'll just install Windows off it and just deal with rebooting when I need the Windows environment in the future. Or just break down and have a dualboot environment with the new computer. The whole point in not dual-booting to begin with was having to be forced to work with Linux and learn how to set something up or fix something broken, learn the filesystem and how the kernel does its thing. I really want a couple new certs to better my hiring prospects.

[z929669]

I updated the Grass LOD guide with some draft GCF instructions.

[James_Richards]

Noice. Helpful edits.

Well, I broke down and decided to wipe my hard drive and install Windows 10. Until I have a better machine, I think the fighting chance to enjoy games is to use Windows, remove unnecessary junk and apply some still useful hacks to improve performance for gaming. Once I have a better machine, I'll most likely go back to Linux. Once I am done, I'll do the grass caching again and see what happens.

Again, Thank you all for the help. It has been invaluable and will be helpful in the future. Maybe we'll have a new version of Proton or further improvements to gaming on Linux and tools.

[James_Richards]

One last note. I was able to generate a new grass cache. AND IT WORKED!

I took the 2.2.0 list, copied into a new profile "grassGen" disabled all mods except for (downgrading versions as needed):

Anniversary content that adds/changes worldspace.
Extenders: none
Resources: All but MCM Helper
Foundation: kept Skyrim Landscape and water fixes, USSEP, Cathedral - plants, Far Object LOD improvement Project, Skyrim Realistic Overhaul, Majestic Mountains, Majestic Mountains Double-sided patch, Cathedral Landscapes,  Mesh Patch for various mods.
Animation and Physics: all
Models and Textures: all but Blended Roads, Realistic Water Two, Majestic Mountains - More Accurate Collision, Majestic Mountains - More Accurate Collision AME Patch and Vivid Landscapes - Tundra Moss Revised
Sounds and Music: all
Character Appearance: all
Fixes: all
Gameplay General: all
Gameplay-AI and Combat: all
Gameplay-Economy: all
Gameplay-Immersion: all
Gameplay-Quests: Alternate Start
Gameplay-Skills and Perks: all
Interface: none
Locations: none
Lighting and weather: all
Utilities: all
Patches: all but Majestic Mountains Creation Club Landscape Patch, Smooth Shores - Landscape Fixes for Grass Mods, Smooth Shores - Tundra Homestead, Smooth Shores - Worldspace Transition Tweaks, Smooth Shores - Snowy Landscapes for Snowy Regions, Smooth Shores - USSEP, Unofficial Skyrim Creation Club Content Patch (custom version with stripped out AE content I don't use) and a customer patch that ensures Elysium Estate changes to the landscape in the area are LAST to load.

I made a few batch files that automatically rename/move/copy files around to turn my Skyrim 1.6.640 to/from 1.5.97 and turn ENB off/on.

I then put Skyrim back to 1.6.640, enabled ENB, made a mod out of my grass cache, disabled the STEP - Grass patch, removed my Elysium Estate patch, generated my LOD's and fired it up.

Game loaded with no problems, went outside with no problems and started running around. All LOD object load fine, a little pop-in here and there, but nothing too noticeable and best of all, no more floating grass around Elysium Estate.

Running the grass cache script from the Grass LOD Guide didn't take as long as before. Through 1) being natively on Windows and 2) stripping down the mod list. If I need to regen my cache, I'll revisit the loaded mods and check if I can remove more that doesn't change the worldspace and maybe improve the time even more, but it took me about an hour and half the way things are. One thing I noticed, Skyrim actually only crashed once on me this time around.

The LOD generation from the main guide also didn't take as long as before. Being on Windows natively surely helps. Which is sad. But we'll see how Proton comes along when I get to building a new computer in the future. Until then, having fun. And getting annoyed as I got used to Linux already. I keep opening command prompt and entering bash commands. XD

Edited May 25, 2023 by James_Richards