DynDOLOD 3.00 Alpha 173

[KaktuZHD]

Hi Guys! When I am trying to generate LOD's with this settings . It's fully freezes at the moment when generating LOD for Falskaar . My CPU 100% load and the program just fully lagged, only the way - restart the computer. If I will put tree LOD level 4 to billboard 4 all will be ok and it will finish generating. My PC specs: core i7-9700k 16 gb ram and RTX 3060 TI

How  can  I fix this problem?

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by KaktuZHD

[sheson]

2 hours ago, KaktuZHD said:

Hi Guys! When I am trying to generate LOD's with this settings . It's fully freezes at the moment when generating LOD for Falskaar . My CPU 100% load and the program just fully lagged, only the way - restart the computer. If I will put tree LOD level 4 to billboard 4 all will be ok and it will finish generating. My PC specs: core i7-9700k 16 gb ram and RTX 3060 TI

How  can  I fix this problem?

 

Next time try to start start the task manager and check memory usage. Do not kill DynDOLOD or reset the PC just let it runs and do its thing. Add realtimelog=1 under [DynDOLOD] in..\DynDOLOD\Edit Scripts\DynDOLOD\DynDOLOD_SSE.ini in case you decide to prematurely kill the main process or reset the PC, which prevents saving the log file otherwise. Upload all files from the log folder.

No information what the processes were currently doing at the time you decided to restart your PC. No information about the load order was provided.
Since it works when not setting 3D tree LOD models for LOD level 4, you probably set fall back to full model trees or installed a tree mod that uses no optimized (full) 3D tree LOD models.

Read all answers for High memory usage / Out of memory at https://dyndolod.info/FAQ

[z929669]

@sheson

I looked through the doc but didn't find any reference for the following settings. I'm hoping you can enlighten me.

; 0 = no mipmaps, 1 = texconv, 2 = internally
ObjectLODGenerateMipMaps=2
TreeLODGenerateMipMaps=2

; Texconv mipmap alpha coverage
AlphaCoverage=0.85

; Internal mipmap alpha factor
AlphaFactor=0.25

I have discovered that AlphaFactor affects mipmapping of tree branch textures with lower values yielding thinner branches and more transparency. (FYI, I think cutting the default 0.25 in half yields better results with EVT and Aspens Ablaze ultra LOD).

Changing TreeLODGenerateMipMaps doesn't seem to affect ultra LOD trees, and neither does AlphaCoverage when changing TreeLODGenerateMipMaps=1.

Questions:

1. Are either of ObjectLODGenerateMipMaps or TreeLODGenerateMipMaps settings tied to either of AlphaCoverage or AlphaFactor settings?
2. Could you provide brief descriptions of these settings and the context to which each applies? (I have largely discovered this myself for AlphaFactor, but not the others)

[sheson]

1 hour ago, z929669 said:

@sheson

I looked through the doc but didn't find any reference for the following settings. I'm hoping you can enlighten me.

; 0 = no mipmaps, 1 = texconv, 2 = internally
ObjectLODGenerateMipMaps=2
TreeLODGenerateMipMaps=2

; Texconv mipmap alpha coverage
AlphaCoverage=0.85

; Internal mipmap alpha factor
AlphaFactor=0.25

I have discovered that AlphaFactor affects mipmapping of tree branch textures with lower values yielding thinner branches and more transparency. (FYI, I think cutting the default 0.25 in half yields better results with EVT and Aspens Ablaze ultra LOD).

Changing TreeLODGenerateMipMaps doesn't seem to affect ultra LOD trees, and neither does AlphaCoverage when changing TreeLODGenerateMipMaps=1.

Questions:

1. Are either of ObjectLODGenerateMipMaps or TreeLODGenerateMipMaps settings tied to either of AlphaCoverage or AlphaFactor settings?
2. Could you provide brief descriptions of these settings and the context to which each applies? (I have largely discovered this myself for AlphaFactor, but not the others)

The settings affect all (alpha) textures on the object LOD or tree LOD atlas.

1. is explained by reading the explanations above the setting. AlphaCoverage is used if texconv is used to generate mipmaps. AlphaFactor is used for the internal mipmap generation
2. AlphaCoverage = texconv command line argument -keepcoverage, AlphaFactor = factor used for internal or internal alpha-to-coverage scaled algorithm.

Instead of changing these values here, I suggest to change the alpha threshold of the 3D tree LOD model. It will have direct impact on the texture and mipmap when the full texture added to the atlas. Think of it as the initial setting for the first mipmap with the highest resolution from which all other mipmaps with lower resolution are derived.

https://dyndolod.info/Help/3D-Tree-LOD-Model
Note that LOD only has binary alpha with a fixed threshold of 128. DynDOLOD reads the alpha threshold from the NiAlphaProperty from the models used for LOD and adjusts the textures before it is added to the atlas texture. The final result in game may be to thick or thin like certain objects seem to be missing or transparency looks off. Try adjusting the NiAlphaProperty in the 3D LOD model. Again, note that the UV texture coordinates need to be >= 0.0 and <= 1.0 for LOD being able to use the atlas texture. If the UV is outside those limits, LOD will use the texture directly.

[z929669]

52 minutes ago, sheson said:

The settings affect all (alpha) textures on the object LOD or tree LOD atlas.

1. is explained by reading the explanations above the setting. AlphaCoverage is used if texconv is used to generate mipmaps. AlphaFactor is used for the internal mipmap generation
2. AlphaCoverage = texconv command line argument -keepcoverage, AlphaFactor = factor used for internal alpha coverage algorithm.

Instead of changing these values here, I suggest to change the alpha threshold of the 3D tree LOD model.

https://dyndolod.info/Help/3D-Tree-LOD-Model
Note that LOD only has binary alpha with a fixed threshold of 128. DynDOLOD reads the alpha threshold from the NiAlphaProperty from the models used for LOD and adjusts the textures before it is added to the atlas texture. The final result in game may be to thick or thin like certain objects seem to be missing or transparency looks off. Try adjusting the NiAlphaProperty in the 3D LOD model. Again, note that the UV texture coordinates need to be >= 0.0 and <= 1.0 for LOD being able to use the atlas texture. If the UV is outside those limits, LOD will use the texture directly.

Thanks for the explanation.

Again, I did test AlphaCoverage=0.15 and 0.95 (default is 0.85) with TreeLODGenerateMipMaps=1 and saw no impact on any trees in object LOD (focusing on Aspens Ablaze though).

Basically, the mipmap alpha threshold in LOD is too low, I think, so I will try raising the NiAlphaProperty in the LOD crowns from 128 (current) to like 176 and test. Thank you.

As I mentioned, you might consider lowering AlphaFactor default value of 0.25, as I find that 0.125 works better for tree mods I have worked with recently (HLT, AA, EVT). Now this may not be the best baseline for other tree mods or tree types ... or vanilla. Just throwing the idea out there.

[sheson]

57 minutes ago, z929669 said:

Thanks for the explanation.

Again, I did test AlphaCoverage=0.15 and 0.95 (default is 0.85) with TreeLODGenerateMipMaps=1 and saw no impact on any trees in object LOD (focusing on Aspens Ablaze though).

Basically, the mipmap alpha threshold is too low in LOD is too low, I think, so I will try raising the NiAlphaProperty in the LOD crowns from 128 (current) to like 176 and test. Thank you.

As I mentioned, you might consider lowering AlphaFactor default value of 0.25, as I find that 0.125 works better for tree mods I have worked with recently (HLT, AA, EVT). Now this may not be the best baseline for other tree mods or tree types ... or vanilla. Just throwing the idea out there.

Do not use texconv to generate mipmap for the LOD atlasses. It is the inferior method and will cause mipmap artifacts.

A tree LOD texture atlas for which the TreeLODGenerateMipMaps is used and only created when generating standard tree LOD.

Ultra tree LOD is LOD for trees done in object LOD, so the ObjectLODGenerateMipMaps applies.

The alpha threshold of LOD is fixed to 128 and can not be changed. As explained in the documentation, the alpha threshold from LOD models is used to adjust the texture of the first mipmap / largest resolution of the texture.

The mipmaps with lower resolution are derived from this adjusted texture and their alpha adjusted with the AlphaFactor. 0.25 (1/4) is the actual reduction of the resolution for each mipmap. It is the correct value. 3D tree LOD models (and any other other LOD model with alpha) included in DynDOLOD Resources SE expects this value. It also works correctly with the billboards added to the standard tree LOD atlas.

Adjusting the alpha threshold in the NIF is the documented method to control "thickness" of alpha textures for ultra tree LOD since many years.

[z929669]

5 hours ago, sheson said:

Do not use texconv to generate mipmap for the LOD atlasses. It is the inferior method and will cause mipmap artifacts.

A tree LOD texture atlas for which the TreeLODGenerateMipMaps is used and only created when generating standard tree LOD.

Ultra tree LOD is LOD for trees done in object LOD, so the ObjectLODGenerateMipMaps applies.

The alpha threshold of LOD is fixed to 128 and can not be changed. As explained in the documentation, the alpha threshold from LOD models is used to adjust the texture of the first mipmap / largest resolution of the texture.

The mipmaps with lower resolution are derived from this adjusted texture and their alpha adjusted with the AlphaFactor. 0.25 (1/4) is the actual reduction of the resolution for each mipmap. It is the correct value. 3D tree LOD models (and any other other LOD model with alpha) included in DynDOLOD Resources SE expects this value. It also works correctly with the billboards added to the standard tree LOD atlas.

Adjusting the alpha threshold in the NIF is the documented method to control "thickness" of alpha textures for ultra tree LOD since many years.

So in my and @DoubleYou's testing, we have found that NiAlphaProperty adjustments work, but only if the initial texture size is small enough. Beginning with a 4k texture, NiAlphaProperty as large as 224 has no visible impact. We had to extract the 256 mip (or resize the texture to 256) before we saw any impact on the resulting LOD alpha.

You will probably have your own ideas, but I assume texconv can extract the 512/256/128 mip level as the basis for applying the AlphaFactor and the resulting tree objects (maybe safer to just resize the top level in case the MA has made custom mips). Then the NiAlphaProperty has room to impact.

[sheson]

7 hours ago, z929669 said:

So in my and @DoubleYou's testing, we have found that NiAlphaProperty adjustments work, but only if the initial texture size is small enough. Beginning with a 4k texture, NiAlphaProperty as large as 224 has no visible impact. We had to extract the 256 mip (or resize the texture to 256) before we saw any impact on the resulting LOD alpha.

You will probably have your own ideas, but I assume texconv can extract the 512/256/128 mip level as the basis for applying the AlphaFactor and the resulting tree objects (maybe safer to just resize the top level in case the MA has made custom mips). Then the NiAlphaProperty has room to impact.

Upload log and debug log and provide example files required to reproduce the problem.

Existing mipmaps in full textures are irrelevant and can not reliably be used - we learned that many years ago. The tools load the largest resolution of a textures, DynDOLOD applies the alpha threshold adjustment and the mipmaps are build from them. The alpha threshold adjustment should always be applied. The generated mipmaps should always have alpha-to-coverage applied. It's possible if a texture is too large there is an (automatic) resize step somewhere that forgets required alpha treatment.

[DoubleYou]

4 hours ago, sheson said:

Upload log and debug log and provide example files required to reproduce the problem.

Existing mipmaps in full textures are irrelevant and can not reliably be used - we learned that many years ago. The tools load the largest resolution of a textures, DynDOLOD applies the alpha threshold adjustment and the mipmaps are build from them. The alpha threshold adjustment should always be applied. The generated mipmaps should always have alpha-to-coverage applied. It's possible if a texture is too large there is an (automatic) resize step somewhere that forgets required alpha treatment.

I will need to regenerate a few times to get the logs, as they currently don't go back far enough. However, the trees in question are Aspen's Ablaze (using the Autumnal variety for test, but shouldn't matter) with my test LODs from Aspens Ablaze Add-On - DynDOLOD 3. Tests were as follows:

1. Full 4k texture with 128 NiAlphaProperty (default)

2. Full 4k texture with 224 NiAlphaProperty - no observable difference

3. Resized to 256 texture with 128 NiAlphaProperty - mostly same as 1

4. Resized to 256 texture with 224 NiAlphaProperty - way too thin

Currently the best ratio for this that I've found is resize to 128 with default NiAlphaProperty and Normal texture modified to remove alpha (fixes lighting and possibly even tint issues - not sure or not about what is causing the tint issues, but it significantly improved when I did this.).

 

[sheson]

1 hour ago, DoubleYou said:

I will need to regenerate a few times to get the logs, as they currently don't go back far enough. However, the trees in question are Aspen's Ablaze (using the Autumnal variety for test, but shouldn't matter) with my test LODs from Aspens Ablaze Add-On - DynDOLOD 3. Tests were as follows:

1. Full 4k texture with 128 NiAlphaProperty (default)

2. Full 4k texture with 224 NiAlphaProperty - no observable difference

3. Resized to 256 texture with 128 NiAlphaProperty - mostly same as 1

4. Resized to 256 texture with 224 NiAlphaProperty - way too thin

Currently the best ratio for this that I've found is resize to 128 with default NiAlphaProperty and Normal texture modified to remove alpha (fixes lighting and possibly even tint issues - not sure or not about what is causing the tint issues, but it significantly improved when I did this.).

Only one session with a threshold that is not anywhere near 128 not having an affect on the texture on the object LOD atlas is required.

The texture in question is one of birch03_c.dds, birch03g_c.dds or birch03y_c.dds?

How do you check/compare the generated object LOD atlas texture and its mipmaps?

Normal map textures have no effect on diffuse alpha. The 4th channel of normal map textures is typically used for the specular map.

[KaktuZHD]

Hi guys! I've generated LOD for skyrim, but trees look very bad in a far distance. When I come closer it become good quality, how can I do good quality for a log distance ? I used Happy little trees mod and Veydogolt trees which have Ultra 3d trees LOD.

 

My DynDOLOD settings which I used to generate LOD

Edited August 26, 2022 by KaktuZHD

[sheson]

1 hour ago, KaktuZHD said:

Hi guys! I've generated LOD for skyrim, but trees look very bad in a far distance. When I come closer it become good quality, how can I do good quality for a log distance ? I used Happy little trees mod and Veydogolt trees which have Ultra 3d trees LOD.

 

My DynDOLOD settings which I used to generate LOD

Read the first post which log and debug log to upload when making posts.

The settings show you opted to use Billboard4 for the first LOD Level 4 for the "tree" mesh mask rule. Read https://dyndolod.info/Help/Ultra-Tree-LOD to learn how to generate LOD for trees with 3D tree LOD models and its requirements, e.g. download/create 3D tree LOD models and set LOD Level 4 to Level0 in order to use the 3D tree LOD models.

[z929669]

6 hours ago, sheson said:

Only one session with a threshold that is not anywhere near 128 not having an affect on the texture on the object LOD atlas is required.

The texture in question is one of birch03_c.dds, birch03g_c.dds or birch03y_c.dds?

How do you check/compare the generated object LOD atlas texture and its mipmaps?

Normal map textures have no effect on diffuse alpha. The 4th channel of normal map textures is typically used for the specular map.

Texture in question are birch03_c.dds and birch03_n.dds.

Looking at texture in DynDOLOD output mod (not as many aspens as expected in the atlas) ..\textures\DynDOLOD\LOD (10 mip levels)

 

A couple things to note about Aspens Ablaze main mod:

• It uses a diffuse with alpha opacity that seems to have custom mips to help achieve its look (4k)
• It uses a custom normal likewise, and the normal also uses alpha opacity (rather than specularity in the alpha) (also 4k)
• The NiAlphaProperty of all crown nodes is 128
• We are testing with 'Autumnal' version (v2.35, no thickets or LOD from main mod)

Testing LOD versions:

1. Reduced poly crowns with same crown NIF parameters as full (v0.1) - logs 0.1
2. Reduced poly crowns (as in #1) with NiAlphaProperty=224 (v0.1) - logs 0.1-224
3. Reduced poly crowns (as in #1) with same crown NIF parameters as full and pointing to 256 px LOD textures (diffuse just resized, normal with alpha romoved and then resized (v0.2 ) - logs 0.2
4. Reduced poly crowns (as in #1) with NiAlphaProperty=224 and pointing to 256 px LOD textures (diffuse just resized, normal with alpha romoved and then resized (v0.2 ) - logs 0.2-224

Screens in same order as above:

I think this demonstrates that lower texture resolution textures used in the crown LOD respond better to alpha scaling but adjustment of NiAlphaProperty threshold in the crown doesn't seem to have any impact. I doubt that the normal alpha plays a role. Textures are available in the download links above

 

EDIT: Interestingly, the BTO NIF properties for aspens are applied to non-aspen trees on the BTO (pines here), and they are really different in the full/LOD models:

 

[sheson]

57 minutes ago, z929669 said:

A couple things to note about Aspens Ablaze main mod:

• It uses a diffuse with alpha opacity that seems to have custom mips to help achieve its look (4k)
• It uses a custom normal likewise, and the normal also uses alpha opacity (rather than specularity in the alpha) (also 4k)
• The NiAlphaProperty of all crown nodes is 128
• We are testing with 'Autumnal' version (v2.35, no thickets or LOD from main mod)

Testing LOD versions:

1. Reduced poly crowns with same crown NIF parameters as full (v0.1) - logs 0.1
2. Reduced poly crowns (as in #1) with NiAlphaProperty=224 (v0.1) - logs 0.1-224
3. Reduced poly crowns (as in #1) with same crown NIF parameters as full and pointing to 256 px LOD textures (diffuse just resized, normal with alpha romoved and then resized (v0.2 ) - logs 0.2
4. Reduced poly crowns (as in #1) with NiAlphaProperty=224 and pointing to 256 px LOD textures (diffuse just resized, normal with alpha romoved and then resized (v0.2 ) - logs 0.2-224

Screens in same order as above:

I think this demonstrates that lower texture resolution textures used in the crown LOD respond better to alpha scaling but adjustment of NiAlphaProperty threshold in the crown doesn't seem to have any impact. I doubt that the normal alpha plays a role. Textures are available in the download links above

There are differences between image #1 (left) and #2 and #3? #3 and #4 (right) seem close. Could the order be reversed? 

Which screenshot or LOD version is the one where you believe LOD matches the full trees best? Not what seems to look best in a still, what has the least noticeable switch between LOD / full model?

When you say diffuse just resize, how? Upload it. Normal map texture does not matter.

[z929669]

1 hour ago, sheson said:

There are differences between image #1 (left) and #2 and #3? #3 and #4 (right) seem close. Could the order be reversed? 

Which screenshot or LOD version is the one where you believe LOD matches the full trees best? Not what seems to look best in a still, what has the least noticeable switch between LOD / full model?

When you say diffuse just resize, how? Upload it. Normal map texture does not matter.

Images are correct order. The differences you note in the screen are subtle (Obsidian Mountain Fogs can impact brightness in some places). In game, they are more apparent. Changing NiAlphaProperty in the second test did result in a small change to brightness, but alpha was still quite 'blotchy' in game. no apparent increase in transparency. Reduced resolution does increase transparency marginally, but NiAlphaProperty change in the final test had no visible impact at all.

Best transitions and LOD matching full is in last two screens, since last two tests use the 256 px textures (first two use 4K from main mod). The main issue is color-bleeding in branches/leaves due to alpha scaling. Full trees get slightly thinner in loaded cells as distance increases, and the same is true in LOD4 as distance increases.

I'm currently testing with diffuse at 128 px res. Will share result when finished.

Main mod textures

Reduced textures (open DDS, resize 4k to 256 in Ps, save using NVIDIA TT) - these LOD mod variants are also available for download from Nexus (linked previously)