Support for ENB Complex Grass In LOD

[z929669]

@sheson I am wondering if you have looked at complex grass support in LOD. I don't know if it's even possible, given the ENB requirements vs DynDOLOD atlas-texture requirements, but there is no way I can find to get a good LOD match in all lighting/weather conditions with LOD grass behaving similarly to loaded grass in terms of light sources and observer PoV.

Basically, ENB-CG looks at lower-left pixels of 2:1 (vertical:horizontal) texture atlas with diffuse/normal, opacity/specular in the alpha. I'm not sure if this could work using the DynDOLOD atlas and grass components of the super meshes, but figured you would have some idea of the limitations for LOD.

I created CG for vanilla and Cathedral Landscapes for testing purposes if you ever have appetite for looking into it.

[z929669]

  On 10/12/2022 at 4:55 PM, RainingTacco said:

Ahhh thanks, that clears it up. One more question -should i leave xLODGEN resource - extended tamriel map turned on when running dyndolod? It's an esm that extends map, i guess it doesn't affect dyndolod at all? Also i can leave all these resources turned on and play the game with them, even though i had generated outputs right?

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That's for terrain LODGen only. Enable this mod only when generating terrain and disable when finished with that. Nothing to do with DynDOLOD.

Note that if you use Worldspace Transition Tweaks, the tamriel terrain resource mod is redundant and not needed. WTT remains active during and after terrain LODGen.

PS: I just know some stuff and am not the expert. sheson's advice overrides mine where they conflict.

[RainingTacco]

  On 10/12/2022 at 5:02 PM, z929669 said:

That's for terrain LODGen only. Enable this mod only when generating terrain and disable when finished with that. Nothing to do with DynDOLOD.

Note that if you use Worldspace Transition Tweaks, the tamriel terrain resource mod is redundant and not needed. WTT remains active during and after terrain LODGen.

PS: I just know some stuff and am not the expert. sheson's advice overrides mine where they conflict.

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Thanks. It's a sisyphus work to set it. When i find nice settings that match whiterun tundra at a given hour, they dont work at other hour, or in other region. I think this gargantuan work would need a carefully crafted landscapes, grass, lod and ENB settings to match everything 95% of the time. No way im gonna go crazy like that, i will take what i did in these few hours and maybe try to mess with it in the next time.

 

Here's a screenshot, do 3D lods even work here?

https://i.imgur.com/WBdvoEC.png

[sheson]

  On 10/12/2022 at 3:05 PM, RainingTacco said:

Does the direct/ambient values in texgen affect how the different and changing ingame lighting will affect the final look? Im speaking about will it look different under different lighting conditions in the game. Or it's just a static brighteness value and if direct/ambient billboard looks the same, then weather and lighting ingame will affect them in the same way.

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TexGen settings affect the textures generated by TexGen. 

They have no effect how the game or ENB works.  DynDOLOD does not change how the game works. DynDOLOD does not change any effects or image spaces, shaders etc.

  On 10/12/2022 at 4:38 PM, RainingTacco said:

Thanks. I dont know what happened but dyndolod is now making 5GB of Lod instead of over 7GB, and the tree lods dont look 3D despite making sure i check hd lod/ultra trees in texgen and dyndolod. Worked fine before, the only change is that i moved the LOD package mods before my output, so they overwrite USSEP and other mods, whereas before my mods were after the lod package[MM lods and dyndolod resources]. Dyndolod picks up Nature of the Wildlands just right, so idk whats happening. How can i check that dyndolod created the 3d lod meshes properly?

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The output file size is not a metric to use for anything.  Instead check the logs and reports in the log folder which tell you what is happening and was is being generated.

Refer to the DynDOLOD documentation for example https://dyndolod.info/Help/Load-Overwrite-Orders

Use the DynDOLOD 3 Alpha thread instead of making off topic posts here. Read the first post before posting.

[sheson]

  On 10/12/2022 at 4:55 PM, RainingTacco said:

Ahhh thanks, that clears it up. One more question -should i leave xLODGEN resource - extended tamriel map turned on when running dyndolod? It's an esm that extends map, i guess it doesn't affect dyndolod at all? Also i can leave all these resources turned on and play the game with them, even though i had generated outputs right?

Expand  

Read the first post of the xLODGen thread:
Only required to be loaded when generating terrain LOD. No harm done when loaded in-game but typically the player can not get close to these areas. There are no effects outside the far away added cells.

Or Nexus description:

Plugin needs to be active only while generating terrain LOD and should be removed or disabled afterwards.

OR:

https://dyndolod.info/Help/xLODGen#Requirements
Remove or disable the plugins after terrain LOD generation. No harm done if loaded in-game. Typically the player can not get close to these areas. There are no effects outside the far away added cells.

In case of questions use the appropriate threads.

[samaelxx46]

Hello,

Is it possible to create a lod hd grass with a mixture of complex and non-complex grass? or should I rather make a lod without complex grass.

Thanks.

Edited May 9, 2023 by samaelxx46

[sheson]

  On 5/9/2023 at 8:56 PM, samaelxx46 said:

Hello,

Is it possible to create a lod hd grass with a mixture of complex and non-complex grass? or should I rather make a lod without complex grass.

Thanks.

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https://dyndolod.info/Help/TexGen#Grass-HD-Grass-Tree-HD-Tree-Rendered
HD Grass LOD billboards are for optional grass LOD generation. The option becomes available if grass models using ENB complex grass textures are found in the load order. Typically it is assumed that ApplyToBasicGrass=true is set in enbseries.ini, so HD grass LOD billboards will be generated for all grasses by default. Set ForceComplexGrass=0 in ..\DynDOLOD\Edit Scripts\DynDOLOD\TexGen_[GAME MODE].ini to generate both types of grass LOD billboards. Set ForceComplexGrass=2 to always force HD Grass LOD billboards.

[samaelxx46]

Hi,
Thank you for your answer, i had not read the manual for the lod well enough, sorry.
I have a mod that adds non-complex grass in another world than skyrim so i will do like you say, i generate the precache grass with the complex grass textures activated and i put Set ForceComplexGrass=0 in dyndolod ini to mix complex and non complex when i do my lod with dyndolod.

For the first test i did last week for my load order with the mixture of complex and non-complex grass and the default settings hd grass, i had no errors about the generation of grass in dyndolod and i had this lod on the screenshot we see that there is no grass lod in the distance is this normal?

https://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=23/19/o4bt.png

I'll start again tomorrow with your parameters to see if it's better.

 

[sheson]

  On 5/10/2023 at 8:28 PM, samaelxx46 said:

Hi,
Thank you for your answer, i had not read the manual for the lod well enough, sorry.
I have a mod that adds non-complex grass in another world than skyrim so i will do like you say, i generate the precache grass with the complex grass textures activated and i put Set ForceComplexGrass=0 in dyndolod ini to mix complex and non complex when i do my lod with dyndolod.

For the first test i did last week for my load order with the mixture of complex and non-complex grass and the default settings hd grass, i had no errors about the generation of grass in dyndolod and i had this lod on the screenshot we see that there is no grass lod in the distance is this normal?

https://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=23/19/o4bt.png

I'll start again tomorrow with your parameters to see if it's better.

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I suggest to simply enable ApplyToBasicGrass=true in enbseries.ini instead.

Read https://dyndolod.info/Official-DynDOLOD-Support-Forum 

Read https://dyndolod.info/Help/Grass-LOD#No-Grass-LOD-Check-List

[z929669]

  On 9/16/2022 at 4:07 PM, sheson said:

I was just going to suggest to use face normals function on all 4 sides and save and test with that billboard to see if it makes a difference for you. It should be ever so slightly brighter at noon.
Save to a new filename and add it to the GrassBillboardX list in the DynDOLOD INI and set ComplexGrassBillboard to its number.

If the nif has a BSTriShape, unfold the Vertex Data list and then any Vertex Data in block details and then click on Normal.

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Finally coming back to this. The Updating instructions (https://dyndolod.info/Help/Grass-LOD#Updating) don't cover the use of altered billboard NIFs (e.g., DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt2_lod.nif in my testing, because I want the backlight). Does this require regen of the worldspace entirely by selecting [OK] button in the DynbDOLOD GUI (rather than [Execute LODGen] or [Rebuild Atlas] buttons)?

I created the altered NIFs like so:

...and DynDOLOD_SSE.ini:

; Billboard templates to use for grass LOD done in static object LOD
; alt1 = without backlighting
; alt2 = with backlighting
; alt3 = softlight/backlight using diffuse - for shader development - do not use
GrassBillboard1=Internal
GrassBillboard2=DynDOLOD_flat_2x2alt1_lod.nif
GrassBillboard3=DynDOLOD_flat_2x2alt2_lod.nif
GrassBillboard4=DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt1_lod.nif
GrassBillboard5=DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt2_lod.nif
GrassBillboard6=DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt3_lod.nif
GrassBillboard7=DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt2_FaceNormals_lod.nif
GrassBillboard8=DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt2_SphereNormals_lod.nif

; Billboard template to use for grass LOD billboards created from "normal" grass without normal map textures
; 1 -> Billboard1, 2 -> Billboard2, 3 -> Billboard3 etc.
GrassBillboard=1

; Billboard template to use for grass LOD billboards created from "complex" grass with normal map textures
; 1 -> Billboard1, 2 -> Billboard2, 3 -> Billboard3 etc.
ComplexGrassBillboard=7
;ComplexGrassBillboard=4

[z929669]

I assume that [Execute LODGen] will suffice and will report back if that is enough. Otherwise, I will regen the tamriel worldspace from scratch.

[z929669]

  On 3/14/2025 at 11:18 PM, z929669 said:

I assume that [Execute LODGen] will suffice and will report back if that is enough. Otherwise, I will regen the tamriel worldspace from scratch.

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[Execute LODGen] was sufficient. This rebuilt the BTO files with the altered meshes as mentioned previously.

Testing Parameters

• Step 2.3 build (uses Cathedral Landscapes Complex Grass for ENB)
• TexGen & DynDOLOD settings per guide instructions (4K) with the exception of grass being set at 100% for this testing
• TexGen_SSE.ini & DynDOLOD_SSE.ini settings here
• Step Heavy ENB - complex grass effect has subtle settings, but several other ENB effects are in play. The goal for now is to find the optimal LOD transitions with this ENB enabled without making changes to ENB settings.
• Variables:
  • EVLaS - active in all screens except where noted in the caption (default is 'on')
  • ComplexGrassBillboard - DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt2_lod.nif and variants of this using face normals function or 'SphereNormals' keyword in the shape name (default is DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt2_lod.nif)

LOD reference (tll console command)

7am, EVLaS off 7am, defaults 7am, face normals 7am, SphereNormals

12pm, EVLaS off 12pm, defaults 12pm, face normals 12pm, SphereNormals

6pm, EVLaS off 6pm, defaults 6pm, face normals 6pm, SphereNormals

• EVLaS has an obvious impact compared to default. The lighting is more natural with this feature enabled, so the goal is to find the optimal LOD transitions with EVLaS enabled.
• Face normals make no discernible difference compared to default. The face normals function makes the normal vectors perpendicular to the billboard mesh face (about 5 to 10 degrees from the horizontal). By default, the normal vectors are horizontal (-5 to -10 degrees from the perpendicular). This is only a very subtle difference, so it's not surprising that there's no apparent difference in game.
• SphereNormals shape keyword makes a huge difference as expected - the grass normal vectors are basically tangent to the billboard mesh faces (pointing up and out towards the sky). As I have found with many tree LOD, the lighting of SphereNormals fixes lighting inconsistencies within the LOD object at the cost of making it overly bright.

My next step will be to see if there is a good compensation for the brightness of the grass with SphereNormals. I am hopeful, because our current TexGen lighting settings are quite amplified to increase brightness, which--until now--has resulted in the best compromise for most ToD.

I think it's worth mentioning that I recently upgraded my graphics card (going from AMD Radeon 5700 XT [1080p] to AMD Radeon 7900 XTX [2160p]), and LOD grasses at midday appear much darker for me now using our current recommended settings. Things still look quite good as the sun moves toward the horizon though. The point is that GFX card, drivers, resolution, monitor calibration--and other factors--can impact these visuals, so each individual might need to make small and unique adjustments to achieve comparable results.

[z929669]

@sheson

When SphereNormals is added to the shape name of DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt2_lod.nif and then saved as a new variant...

...the backlight feature is lost in the generated BTO.

This does not happen when DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt2_lod.nif is altered to use the face normals function.

It results in a BTO that uses gray in the 7th texture slot, and the Back_lighting flag is set.

[z929669]

Here's some Complex Grass (CG) compares using different TexGen options. These are all based upon identical TexGen and DynDOLOD processing from scratch (i.e., no "Rebuild Atlas" or "Execute LODGen" shortcuts, as I found those produced inconsistent results). I'm using a 4K (2160p) system. See my sig for PC specs.

The only differences in the outputs are single variables in TexGen processing, which are noted.

Relevant mods:

• Cathedral Landscapes Complex Grass for ENB (v1.2.0)
• EVT (v2.3.0b)

 

LOD reference

---

7AM, Texture size min=32 7AM, Texture size min=64

12PM, Texture size min=32 12PM, Texture size min=64

6PM, Texture size min=32 6PM, Texture size min=64

• Increasing the min size to 64 seems to have a slightly better outcome under 4K at least. The LOD grass is brighter at 32, presumably due to higher starting mip levels and less accurate alpha. BUT, at midday, 32 pixel min looks better, since the normals are not casting as much light when the sun is high.

All following compares use Texture size min=64.

---

7AM, BC7 Quick 7AM, BC7 Max

12PM, BC7 Quick 12PM, BC7 Max

BC7 Quick 6PM, BC7 Max

• BC7 Max has a slightly better outcome, but again, this does not hold true at midday, presumably because more distant LOD grasses lose some lighting due to the more preserved alpha under BC7 Max. However, nearer LOD grasses at midday are slightly brighter with BC7 Max.

---

7AM, HD grass smoothness=0 7AM, HD grass smoothness=50

12PM, HD grass smoothness=0 12PM, HD grass smoothness=50

6PM, HD grass smoothness=0 6PM, HD grass smoothness=50

• Smoothing the normals tones them down a bit, reducing the lighting, which works well in all cases except for midday, where grass LOD is once again too dark.