SKYRIMSE Collections of Nexusmods is in open alpha

[z929669]

1 hour ago, DoubleYou said:

I do want to look at Wabbajack at some point, but right now I have my hands full with a few other projects I want to do first, so I likely won't have time until maybe next year. My timeline as it is now:

• Finish ACMOS update. 
• Release road lods in coordination with ACMOS update, dynamically adding roads to the map via object lod. 
• Develop the Fallout 4 guide
• Contribute a bunch of missing mods to the Fallout 4 LOOT masterlist. 
• Continue creating missing LODs for Fallout 4. 
• Finish and release Bethini Pie. 

Not sure how long this is going to take me. 

Anyone can create a Step Wabbajack or Collection using our guides if they want. It should simply be labeled (Unofficial Step #.#.# {GameName} Mod List).

If one of the Step Admins cares to maintain this, then it's obviously 'official' and would require that we maintain it. This is why I am not interested at this time.

[TechAngel85]

16 hours ago, Whitestar127 said:

Here's my suggestion, and bear with me as I don't know exactly what can and can't be done with Wabbajack:

What if you just provided all of Step 4 as a Wabbajack optional download and install (excluding such things as SKSE that must be installed manually), programming it to pre-select all options including weather and ENB? Wouldn't that ensure that everything got installed correctly and thereby reduce the need for support, or in other words reduce the chance of user-errors?

Here's the problem I have with these requests/suggestions. What this is asking of us is for us to spend all or most of our free time maintaining something that others are not willing to do themselves, and regarding something that we've stated we don't have much interest in. In other words, you don't want to spend your time doing it so you're asking someone else to spend their time to do it for you. How is this fair, as that is the tradeoff with such a request? Consider all the time and effort it would take to initially set up a Collection or Wabbajack and then the continued maintenance of all that every time a mod updates (along with our Guide so now we'd be doubling the work on our end). You know how often mods update...

So you see, those asking this are simply pushing something they're not willing to do themselves onto others and asking others to spend their time to make someone else's life easier...because they don't have enough time.  Why is your time more precious than mine? Than Z's? Than DY's? Than Greg's? Than anyone else's? We're not paid for this. We don't earn a dime from Step. It's all done in our free time.

Rarely is much or any thought put in for the consequences of any request, and this particular request is not a small one. Perhaps with that one can see why we would push back after spending much of our free time creating and maintaining the Guides, as they are now. The point I'm trying to make is to stop and think about what you're asking before you ask it.

EDIT:
"You" is not directed at anyone. I've used it in a general sense for anyone asking for this. 

[Whitestar127]

13 hours ago, TechAngel85 said:

Rarely is much or any thought put in for the consequences of any request, and this particular request is not a small one. Perhaps with that one can see why we would push back after spending much of our free time creating and maintaining the Guides, as they are now. The point I'm trying to make is to stop and think about what you're asking before you ask it.

EDIT:
"You" is not directed at anyone. I've used it in a general sense for anyone asking for this. 

Fair point. I guess I have hugely underestimated the time needed for this to become a reality. I will probably look into Greg's tip for some small amount of personal "automation" for myself.

[ChiefBigFeather]

Well, I'd say I was more on the power user side of things. I'd definitely use a more automated STEP install, as I am prone to fatigue when installing mods for hours and tend to make errors. Then I make everything worse trying to fix those errors :)

But I've always used STEP as a baseline modded Skyrim, so getting that baseline up and running faster would have been a big convenience. I can totally understand you not wanting to invest the time though.

As for whether people learn a lot about modding when following STEP: I'm not so sure. Your guide may be a bit too well crafted for that :)

I do not think that automation takes something away though, the same way STEP did not take anything away when I didn't know what all the options in all the fomods of my modlist did. That is ultimately the conservative argument: I was having fun having to do it, and so should you son! But I think easier, more convenient tools are a good thing. The interested people will still dive deeper, the ignorant ones already found ways to not care. New tools is generally a good way to build a foundation out of accumulated knowledge. If you actually want to invest your free time in building said foundation is an entirely different beast, and being passive-aggressive about your views on modding in that context seems inappropriate to me.

I'm extremely tired, seeing that the discussion was a little tense at times I hope I didn't stir anything up. Even thinking about having the time to install mods again will be a long way in the future for me, so I have no investment one way or the other :)

[TechAngel85]

I understand where there may be some passive aggressiveness coming from my side. If I think about it, the reason for it would be the continued asking for Collections or Wabbajack after the fact that we've stated we're not interested in those for Step. DY is the only one that really said he's interested in at least testing it out and that will be entirely on him if he wants to do that; but he's also stated he's got a lot on his agenda right now. Z has stated his stance that is more middle ground but leaning towards not wanting to mess with the stuff. I am on the far end of not caring about it at all and will not be messing with it at all. Greg is neutral as far as I can tell.

This stuff can be discussed all day, but with the knowledge that Step will not likely have any of it anytime soon, if ever. Most of the discussion seemed to be trying to convince us why we should include it. We get that and those reasons, but we've stated our stances. That stances may change in the future with further discussion, who knows.

[ChiefBigFeather]

Na, I really didn't mean you :)

Reading my post again, I see that it can easily be understood that way. What I meant to say is that you are pouring your free time into the STEP project. For others to make passive aggressive statements about how you should best use that time seems inappropriate.

Besides, it is also really counter productive. No one obligates you to contribute in a way you do not want to, that's how the Skyrim community works (*hopefully, *mostly, ect. ). You probably contributing to STEP because you are having fun sharing your expertise in the current modding process and building with others. That alone seems like a really good reason to keep things the way they are.

[theblackman]

On 8/26/2022 at 9:39 AM, TechAngel85 said:

Hmmm... I am reading your posts as coming in hot, to be honest. You seem a bit upset or angry from your sharp retorts as if you've been attacked on a personal level, but perhaps it's just passion coming through as such. In any case, that is how your posts read to me.

Hopefully I adequately responded to this in my sidebar comment but to reiterate, could I recommend that you don't let it colour your responses at all and refrain from mentioning it - saving everyone time.  I can assure you I am/was quite chill and will continue to be so.  You're welcome to ask me if you're unsure.

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I also get the feeling you either work more in black and white or, at the least, that is more of what you're asking for so I will try to adjust in my responses

You might get that feeling but it would ignore the statements I've made about this domain being a nuanced and complex topic and about modders (users and authors) being a broad church.  Rather than relying on feelings, why don't use quote/use actual evidence that supports your contention that I "...work more in black and white." 

But of course, if we can just spout unsupported opinions, then providing evidence is optional, isn't it... 

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Why does a personal opinion need to be supported by outwardly evidence?

Because an opinion unsupported by evidence is dogma.  If it is just an opinion, why do you feel the need to defend yourself so vociferously?  And 'vaccines cause autism' is just an opinion too but I'm sure  you wouldn't allow that sort of BS to be promoted on this forum.  Unfortunately, the contention that vaccines cause autism shares the same fatal flaw that your opinion does: a lack of any evidence to support it.

And if it is 'just an opinion' then why do you feel the need to mention your important job and how you believe it inoculates you against confirmation bias? 

You’ve also made an implicit appeal to authority here (your own) in support of your opinion. Unfortunately, you don’t seem to be acknowledging that experts routinely get things wrong even in their own domains of expertise.  We saw this demonstrated during COVID when the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention told Americans that they didn’t need to wear face masks.  An opinion that was unequivocally wrong.  It was Zeynep Tufekci (a social scientist, not a medical professional) who convinced the CDC otherwise.  An appeal to authority is not a valid argument in support of your opinion.

Further, you make factual claims in support of your opinions, like: "The numbers of those that know proper modding skills has been declining over the years...", but you never actually provide any evidence. 

Modding of ES games has been going on for two decades now with significant use of automation tools being used for at least a decade. That's 10 years for evidence of a dumbing down of mod users to become apparent.  Yet there is no evidence of that occurring (which you admit) and your anecdotes do not constitute evidence.  You’re also assuming that your very limited experience with mod users ( I say ‘very limited’ as it constitutes only a tiny fraction of all mod users) is indicative of the wider community.  So not only do we have clear opportunity for confirmation bias to occur, there is a selection bias happening as well.

Perhaps you should ask yourself how long you'll go on espousing an opinion for which no evidence exists that proves its veracity.  If there's still no evidence in another 10 years, are you still going to be banging the same old drum; still stubbornly clinging on to your cherished opinion rather than face the terrible embarrassment of admitting you were wrong and that you voluntarily adopted an unnecessarily negative view of the community you've devoted so much time to....?

 That was one of the reasons I quoted the community citizenship guide which specifically mentions negative attitudes, such as the one you’ve adopted about the modding community.

Conclusion

Tech’s assertion that opinions don’t need to be supported by evidence

STATUS: Banished to the outer planes of Oblivion by the Hero of Kvatch

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Perhaps with more information you'd understand better my stance on automating mod installs and know that decisions aren't arbitrary. You actually can't possibly know anything about my decisions without an account of why I've come to my conclusions. You're making a lot a assumptions.

I don't think I've ever taken issue with your stance on automating mod installs per se, other than a comment over in the other thread to the effect of: it would be good to know if the STEP community would like an automated install option (which has already been addressed here and there).  I was actually referring to your decisions to arbitrarily defend some tools/utilities as acceptable automation, but others as unacceptable 'because reasons', which I already mentioned above.  Also, at what point does automation actually start to produce this ‘dumbing down’ phenomenon?  Does it depend on which automation tools are used, or the number used or some combination of these aspects?  I keep identifying the implicit and explicit assumptions you are making and you keep ignoring them....

Please quote or specify the assumptions I’m making because I don’t think I’ve made any.

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Please expand beyond you so elegantly saying that my opinion is based on own bias confirmations, or is that all you're saying

You keep making statements like this, inferring that I am being somehow obtuse or that what I've written has dimensionality beyond that which I have written in my post.  That is a rabbithole entirely of your own making.  What I mean is what I have written.  Speculating on what is not in the content I’ve posted is a waste of time.  Again, you’re welcome to ask me if you think I’m intending for you to read between the lines.

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Don't get me started on bias. My RL job requires unbiased consciousness. It's literally a job requirement and I'm tested on it monthly. Still employed so... Every single thing you've stated has been bias toward your own personal unconscious bias that was learned through your own life experience. Look it up. The most I can say is I work for one of the top social media platforms...dumb NDAs.

I’m going to go ahead and assert, with no evidence, that most people reading this don’t care what you do for a job – I certainly don’t and it is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.  

But I'm sure you enjoyed the unnecessary flex. 

And NDAs are fairly routine these days. What you do for a job doesn't make you immune to unconsciously allowing cognitive biases to influence your worldview - in fact, your boasting here might even make you more susceptible.  There's a reason why hubris was such a dominant theme of classical Greek literature.... I didn't use my 'important' job to try to sound more persuasive and authoritative when I was poking holes in your arguments.  I didn't need to.  And yes I am familiar with the literature regarding this domain - I've read Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow, for example.  For your edification, you might also check out Iain McGilchrist's work (The Master and his Emissary) where he shows that the left hemisphere of the brain is rather adept as making up stories to explain why it does certain things, even when there's abundant evidence to the contrary.  Perhaps that helps to explain why humans often dogmatically and irrationally cling to their cherished opinions even when there's no evidentiary or logical reason to do so....

Although avoidance of public embarrassment is a pretty good explanation if you ask me.  Certainly in this circumstance, anyway.

Conclusion

 

Tech’s assertion that because he has an important job and has signed an NDA, he is immune to cognitive biases

STATUS: Suffering from terminal irrelevancy, like Friendster and BeBo

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"Proper modding" to me means to install mods manually rather than relying on automation for that task; specially talking only about mod installations. You seems to want to be on one end of the extreme or the other, which is why it seems you're working with black and white. But I work in the grey here. Automation is great and fine for some things that tools have been created for and either create standardization or complete tasks that hardly anyone would be able to do on their own. These are thing like what xLODGen, DynDOLOD, etc. do for us. What else would you like me to defined?

Thanks for providing a definition for 'proper modding', at last.  If I had to provide a definition I would say that it would include the use of xEdit and The Method (as described in the xEdit documentation).  However, as virtually nobody uses The Method, and most mod users use xEdit once at most if at all, it's rather a useless definition as it encompasses so few users, regardless of how many people might agree with it.  Some will agree with you that 'proper modding' means to install mods manually but as virtually nobody does that, it is, like my definition of ‘proper modding’, also useless as it has limited practical applicability.  It's also ironic that none of the guides that you have curated recommend manually installing mods, although I appreciate that this is your personal opinion, not your STEP opinion.  So given the term 'proper modding' is so nebulous and has no commonly agreed definition, it is useless for communicating any meaningful information especially in its use as a prescriptive solution to avoid ‘dumbing down’ and discouraging 'lazy' users.

So why continue to use it?

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Then there is the loss of experience because once an issue arises, the users is just left dumbfaced as to what to do to fix there problem. Why? Because they've not learned how. They skipped all that and then want to complain and wine about it on support forums and to authors; fully expecting a hand-holding experience because that's all they've been taught by automation.

Again, you’re making gross generalisations about a huge and diverse group of people and ignoring the fact that some mod users have always done that and will always do that.  What you haven’t done, and frankly can’t do, is substantiate that there is more of that happening as a result of automation that there was before automation became widely used.  It’s similar to the contention that social media use is making humans dumber, an assertion for which much research has been done but is yet to be proved, although some research has revealed many counter-intuitive results.

I mention that last aspect because you have not acknowledged that some things are counter-intuitive and if we relied solely on our intuitions (as you are when you refer to your experience), then there would be some facts about the world that we 'intuited' to be true, that are actually false.  But we might never discover that....

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Then they have users, such as yourself, how what to praise automation to the roof top, which is all good and fine, but condemn the opposing side when they want to speak out about their experience.

You're being unnecessarily hyperbolic here.  I’ve never praised automation other than to state the obvious that it saves everyone time.  I’ve also not condemned you for speaking out about your experience and the way you've phrased this seems a tad reductionist - there's more to it than that and I have shown that in this post.  I’ve repeatedly asked you to provide some evidence to substantiate your opinion and to specify what you mean regarding certain terms you use in support of your opinion and to clarify why you think some automation is acceptable and other forms not.

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Broad and sweeping generalization based on my experiences with this group of users, yes. What better teacher is there than time and experience? Again you are asking for data analysis for which there is none (for either side of the debate here). Please, do explain what 'unacceptable behavior' you are referring to.

You are making the assertions about automation causing a ‘dumbing down’ and encouraging users to be ‘lazy’.  The other side of the debate (me) is not making any positive claims.  The burden of proof is on you – which is also mentioned in the citizenship guide, btw.  I have said that there is no evidence that supports your assertions and that there are aspects of your stance that are problematic in that they are nebulous and contain double standards.  I will grant you that it is possible that there is some dumbing down occurring, but it’s also possible that a supernova might explode over my house before Xmas.

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However, I seemed to have struck a nerve and should reconsider the entirety of my worldview based on the fact that I don't think mod installation should be automated.

Again, you have mischaracterised my comments.  I recommend you familiarise yourself with the terms ‘strawmanning’ and ‘steelmanning’ because it’s becoming a tad irritating having to correct your erroneous interpretations of my comments.

I stated that the lack of evidence to support your ‘dumbing down’ opinion should be enough to reconsider your worldview, not that you don’t think that mod installation should be automated.

The reason I think that is because you have voluntarily adopted an unnecessarily negative view (which is one aspect of your worldview) of mod users based on (as you’ve admitted) no evidence.

Of course, you have the right to hold that view if you wish, but I don’t think it’s appropriate to promulgate that view on a forum where you have considerable influence and other people are likely to uncritically accept that view as fact, especially given the fact-based claims you have made in support of your view (mentioned previously), that again, are not supported by any evidence.

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Do you hear yourself? You are the only one trying to turn my opinion into a thesis.  Please ensure you credit me in the footnotes (joke).

Oh dear.  You know what a synonym is right?  Still, if I can make fun of you for your cringey flex about your job, I guess it's OK for you to make fun of me for my word choice.  If not, that would make your Admin note a bit hypocritical - making fun of me, but then admonishing me for indulging in, what you arbitrarily define as, 'personal attacks' (and are still yet to identify/quote them).

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As, I am surprise at you, sir.

What is this, tit for tat?  Imitation might be the sincerest form of flattery but it does suggest a lack of creativity....

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If you truly understand my point of view and I've told you that I understand yours, then what is all this about?

I’m not sure you do understand my point of view.  Given the amount of content you’ve devoted to it, you seem preoccupied with my state of mind rather than what I’ve actually written, you’ve strawmanned my comments (as I show above) and you keep referring to all the assumptions I’ve made but you don’t actually identify any.

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The problem is, at least some, not all, of your responses seem to be inflaming toward a person and not an idea or topic. My comments were never toward any specific individuals. I referred to a category of users, a user base, without putting any specific individuals into that category. That is no different than talking about "men" or "women" in a general context.

Last year, during the fiasco that was the change to NM's mod deletion policy, a link to a Reddit thread was posted to the GMAD forum on NM.  The Reddit thread contained dozens of toxic comments from mod users towards mod authors, as a group.  You can read for yourself the responses from mod authors to that thread, in the GMAD forum – the responses range from angry to hurt to resignation and everything in between. 

So your assertion that making comments about a group of people as long as you are not referring to individuals is totally ok, is frankly wrong and this one example alone disproves it. 

And I could come up with any number of further examples here, but you could even do a thought experiment yourself to disprove your own assertion - a history book also might be a good place to start.  So I stand beside my wrong-headed comment; as I wrote before, it wasn't a personal attack, it described behaviour which I found a little offensive and other people could as well.

Conclusion

Tech's assertion that it's OK to make negative comments about a group of people

STATUS: Systematically demolished by the Akulakhan under Red Mountain.

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Please, do explain what 'unacceptable behavior' you are referring to.

See directly above.

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I'm gathering up a lot of titles (deficient, evasive, wrong-headed...)! 

Those are adjectives, not titles.

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In contrast, at least part of your replies have been directly towards me, an individual, and not the topic. That's what we are referring to.

I’ve re-read my comments.  You are quite wrong.  I have consistently addressed my points to what you have written – I made statements like ‘your stance…’, ‘your view…’.  And I have not been preoccupied with someone’s state of mind. Further, you’ve brought your RL job into the discussion here which is a strange move if you’re (erroneously) criticising me for directing my replies to you personally.

Stating that I have made personal attacks doesn't mean that that's what I in fact did (that's a 'because I said so' assertion).  Quote the examples (as is recommended by the citizenship guide) so that I have the opportunity to either clarify or apologise and withdraw the offending passage.

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It's been frustrating and unfair to have to consistently refute your false assumptions

Name one.  You can't have refuted any because you haven’t specified any.

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I fully admit Z and I took a couple of our own little jabs, but it was only because we perceived jabs in the first place.

So personal attacks are OK if you perceive you are the victim of one?  I don’t think it unreasonable to expect that moderators hold themselves to a higher standard of behaviour….

[TechAngel85]

Topic locked. We're not getting back into this after a month of it being past just to keep the pot stirring.