Paid mods are now available on the workshop

[EssArrBee]

Well, I'm beginning to agree.  The 'community' on Nexus is really starting to show it's true colors.  Not that mod users have ever been particularly appreciative, but these attacks on mod authors are a terrible reflection on what this 'community' really stands for.  Honestly, I'm not sure I really want much part of that community anymore.

And that right there is exactly the problem. No one even bothered to consider the feelings of the content creators. Most mod users have been self-serving leeches that feel entitled to things they get for free just because they clicked the endorsement button.

 

I would say to wait a bit for the craziness to die down and then people will accept it and live with it. I've started thinking about this long term and how it could play out. I'm less doom and gloom about it, though I was never completely against the idea even before it became official. 

[GrantSP]

You know I was feeling the same as you @kryptopyr for most of yesterday and today when I noticed most of the attacks were from users that have suddenly sprung up now that a 'cause' is here for them to jump on to. Notice how many of the terrible posts are from users that have less than 50 posts and no kudos or other credit to their name.

 

I'm beginning to turn the corner and see that, by and large, the Nexus community is just being infiltrated by haters looking for a way to vent their spleens at someone.

Give it a week and I am confident things will die down and we can pick our way through the carnage and see proper communication restored in that forum.

[kryptopyr]

Yeah, I'm hoping it calms down before we lose more good modders.  I'm really tempted to upload something to steam to lure those idiots to my mod pages where I would have the ability to ban them from ever using any of my free mods. 

[Jverv]

I have to agree with Grant, it will calm down. The mature, good people (which is probably 90% of the users) are allowing this to blow over without overreacting as many living generations tend to do in most circumstances these days. Don't let the whole thing get you down Krypto, I would suggest ignoring the negativity on the Nexus forums for a few weeks and taking a small break.

 

I don't think there is a way to truly show the appreciation we have for modder's such as yourself and others. I think guides and forums like STEP show just how much respect there is. The guides are homages to yours and others amazing time and talent. 

Yeah, I'm hoping it calms down before we lose more good modders.  I'm really tempted to upload something to steam to lure those idiots to my mod pages where I would have the ability to ban them from ever using any of my free mods. 

Lol, now that's the spirit!!

[Neovalen]

And that right there is exactly the problem. No one even bothered to consider the feelings of the content creators. Most mod users have been self-serving leeches that feel entitled to things they get for free just because they clicked the endorsement button.

 

I would say to wait a bit for the craziness to die down and then people will accept it and live with it. I've started thinking about this long term and how it could play out. I'm less doom and gloom about it, though I was never completely against the idea even before it became official. 

Like any community there are bad eggs and good eggs, not everyone is self-serving leeches. There are plenty of great people out there that want nothing more than to learn how to mod and are very appreciative of everything they are given.

You know I was feeling the same as you @kryptopyr for most of yesterday and today when I noticed most of the attacks were from users that have suddenly sprung up now that a 'cause' is here for them to jump on to. Notice how many of the terrible posts are from users that have less than 50 posts and no kudos or other credit to their name.

 

I'm beginning to turn the corner and see that, by and large, the Nexus community is just being infiltrated by haters looking for a way to vent their spleens at someone.

Give it a week and I am confident things will die down and we can pick our way through the carnage and see proper communication restored in that forum.

I'm sure there is a lot of this going on, especially given the news exposure it has gotten. I'm going to make this clear before I go on, that hate speech and vitriol does not have a place in the community. That being said, a fair bit of the criticism and backlash being leveled at some of these mod authors is very much deserved and warranted. Literally, until the day the store released, people were being hyped up and assured that the new releases were coming soon with zero hint that it wouldn't be given freely as it always had been. It would have been better to simply say nothing about the upcoming versions at all until the day it came out and then explained it.

 

I also feel that people giving un-endorsements, authors hiding their mods in protest until such time that they can have dependencies on now-paid mods removed, pointing out places where formerly-respected mod authors basically spit on their former (current?) user base are all fair game. I want you all to note, that not a single STEP member has posted a hateful comment on a mod authors page that I've seen and I'm really proud of that fact.

 

I think the silent majority are waiting a bit to see how this all plays out, but I'm sure about 90+% of them view this in a negative light even if they sympathize with the sentiments of the modders electing to join the paywall. As I stated before: even at $1 a mod, the community would be much much smaller than it currently is. Money rarely, if ever, improves quality of life. It simply drives greed and resentment. The biggest problem with paywalling, for me, is the splitting of the community. You can no longer assume that people have access to a mod, therefore you can no longer ask for support from friendly modders or compatibility patches if they do not also own said mod. I somehow doubt you will get permissions from people to use assets from their paid mod, even if you aren't selling yours. The cycle of teaching new modders tips and tricks could very well come to an end to keep a competitive advantage over others, etc. The list goes on on the reasons this is a bad move, not to mention the corporate greed in this.

[EssArrBee]

Yeah, I'm hoping it calms down before we lose more good modders.  I'm really tempted to upload something to steam to lure those idiots to my mod pages where I would have the ability to ban them from ever using any of my free mods. 

Damn, that's cold blooded. No wonder your husband spent all day cleaning the house. He wasn't being nice, he was scared.  

[kryptopyr]

Damn, that's cold blooded. No wonder your husband spent all day cleaning the house. He wasn't being nice, he was scared.  

Shoot, I guess I finally let my true nature slip. 

[Nozzer66]

Cold, but I can sort of understand it. 

 

The SkyUI guys really haven't covered themselves in glory, though. No updates for 2 years, and as soon as a paywall pops up, a miracle update? That's never going to play well.

 

 

EDIT: This gave me a giggle

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65022

Edited April 25, 2015 by Nozzer66

[Octopuss]

Apollodown looks to be upset about SkyUI 5.0. He has hidden all his mods in protest.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33s0g8/i_have_hidden_all_of_my_mods/

 

 

From the post.

I understand that position. I'm not sure I agree with it though. There aren't many nexus users that will be seeking out SkyUI on Steam after grabbing Apollodown's mods when it's by far the most popular mod on the nexus. I'm just happy that someone got schlangster to update the mod regardless of how they did it.

Apollodown is another case of self entitled person who is high on his own modding success. He acts like he is THE modder who just knows better and can tell people what to do and how things really are.

He can protest all he wants, I hope noone will give a damn.

Besides, there's nothing wrong with SkyUI 4.1.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Octopuss

[cccow]

Octopuss - Come now, lets not start abusing any modders who have invested a lot of themselves in their work from either side.

 

And lets not say the community has shown this or that. I would qualify as a mod user who rarely posts, normally as I know too little to be of much use, but can generally find out how to fix things by searching for information and by testing. I hope I am not a 'self-entitled leach'. I have huge gratitude and admiration for all the work people do here and elsewhere.  

 

The problem to me is not people finding a way to get something back for their efforts...and in this world the exchangeable token of money is legitimate (even if dangerous). Rather that there was no proper process or discussion or at least the chance to inclusively navigate around a better way to do this. It is an imposed and rigged method of achieving a legitimate ends. (Serving other agendas??) 

 

For e.g - I paid...I can't remember....say £40 for the game & dlc's. I am certainly willing (& have partly done so through donations) to pay that again as a contribution to modders. But how? Who to? Do I get to test them first? How to apportion etc etc. I don't know any precise answer, but the way to go would have been constructive engagement which at least attempted to include people. 

 

Anyhow I still thank ALL of you who have shared you time & skills in such an enthusing and generous manner.

[hishutup]

well, frozunswaidon has pulled the main download for Skyrim Realistic Texture Overhaul dragons 4K-8K and Advanced Skyrim Realistic Texture Overhaul Mountain

I would suggest that you grab the others before they disappear.

 

I have almost all of the mods from frozunswaidon, Chesko, Isoku in case any of them pull their stuff.

[Octopuss]

I hope things will calm down in the next few weeks. I also hope authors will realize that hiding mods won't solve anything and will only hurt the players.

[keithinhanoi]

Some observations (and speculation!) from things that happened while I was sleeping:

• It's really strange that the s**tstorm has been inproportionally targeting just some of the group of mod authors who decided to offer a paid mod at the start of Valves new paid workshop mod program. This ranges from personal/family death threats and/or threats of violence, indiscriminate spamming of some mod authors' various internet accounts, deletion and supression of mod authors' positive/optimistic/informational posts, and creation of fake accounts under the authors' alias to post misinformation on the one side, to a dull roar of rude posts and actual mature discussion on the other. All of it completely and utterly inexcusable, but why are people seemingly ganging up on certain authors? It's not just because they are well-known / respected, because a few who are "old hands" seem not to be experiencing as much of the brunt of it all from what I can tell. A real mystery to me.
   
• Chesko's Reddit post helps towards confirming a suspicion I have. He mentions that Nexus is listed as a "Service Provider" which can be selected to receive a percentage of Valve's revenue from the sales of Skyrim Workshop mods. Chesko also mentions that he had a month and a half to prepare for the introduction of the new workshop. Connecting the dots tells me that the Robin Scott / the Dark One was very likely already well aware of Valve's/Bethesda's plans when he posted his blog entry about the idea of paid modding. If true, then is appears this post may have been an attempt to get people mentally prepared for the inevitable. Chesko questions this profit sharing relationship between Valve and Nexus Mods (keep in mind to become a Service Provider at the start, you had to be approached by Valve/Bethesda, since everything was secret, under a NDA.) in light of Dark One's more recent blog post reaffirming that there are no plans to add a mod payment system to Nexus.
   
• The ugly side of the agreement between the mod authors who agree to publish paid mods and Valve / Bethesda is being revealed, piece by piece. Chesko's Reddit post mentions that Valve will no completed remove a mod from the Workshop after it has been publish for sale, and Valve's lawyer contacted Chesko, confirming that they will not remove his content unless "legally compelled to do so" - although they will make the mod(s) invisible to everyone except paid users. 
  
  I have also already pointed out a statement by Shezrie implying Valve doesn't permit publishing of paid mods which already exist elsewhere, and this morning I note that on the comments thread for Pure Weather, Laast - who has a completely new overhaul mod for sale on Steam Workshop - said "I can't give a mod for free here on Nexus, and asking for money for the same mod on Steam. Hope you'll understand." I've asked for clarification on this, but my guess - from what Chesko, Shezrie and Laast have said - is that Valve's agreement for paid mod publishers includes an exclusivity clause. In other words, a paid mod on Steam Workshop cannot be available in its exact form anywhere else. A different version is fine, or one with a different feature set, but not an exact duplicate. Some of the things said by the SkyUI author's also seem to support this. Of course, the best way to find out is to "pretend" to publish a mod on SW to see exactly what the legal agreement terms are. To my knowledge no one has shared this text anywhere. If any of you have seen it, please post with a link!

That said, the Steam Subscriber Agreement is easily accessed here, and with regards to Chesko's comment about being upset with Valve not completely removing his content, there is this clause from section 6-B:

You may, in your sole discretion, choose to remove a Workshop Contribution from the applicable Workshop pages. If you do so, Valve will no longer have the right to use, distribute, transmit, communicate, publicly display or publicly perform the Workshop Contribution, except that (a) Valve may continue to exercise these rights for any Workshop Contribution that is accepted for distribution in-game or distributed in a manner that allows it to be used in-game, and (b) your removal will not affect the rights of any Subscriber who has already obtained access to a copy of the Workshop Contribution.

 

I'll also note:

You grant Valve and its affiliates the worldwide, non-exclusive, right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, transcode, translate, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and publicly perform, your User Generated Content, and derivative works of your User Generated Content, in connection with the operation and promotion of the Steam site.
 

and

The termination of said license does not affect the rights of any sub-licensees pursuant to any sub-license granted by Valve prior to termination of the license. Valve is the sole owner of the derivative works created by Valve from your Content, and is therefore entitled to grant licenses on these derivative works.
 

...which basically says to me that once you have published and user generated content (paid or free), Valve can use elements of it to make derivative works which is then Valve's to do with as they please - most importantly to "grant licenses" which in other words means sell your work.
 
In Chesko's case, Valve is well within their rights to use derivatives of the two mods he has now "pulled" from the Workshop, and sell them without any need for 25% of revenues going to Chesko. Not that they will, but they can do this. A mod author doesn't even need to pull their mod off the Workshop for this to happen. Valve could take elements from a bunch of mods and combine them into derivative DLC content from which they will solely own and receive profits for - with some portion going to Bethesda, of course.
 
I suggest people think about that for a minute or two.

 
Besides that, I see the system as currently established as completely flawed from an economic standpoint.
 
People have made arguments about custom armor / weapon mods not being worth even $0.99 US, and perhaps quest-based or overhaul mods being worth more, as Saerileth has mentioned, and I agree that this is a flawed comparison. The problem is most people seem to be basing these comparisons or judgments of relative value on what they've paid for games and/or official DLC content. And a lot of people, myself included, paid a discount price on the DLCs, and even Skyrim itself.
 
You have to think back to what the original retail pricing of the game and DLCs is, and more importantly, consider economy of scale. The original retail price points of games and DLCs is based on sales projections - in the tens or hundreds of thousands, or even millions of units. Even the timing and percentage of discount pricing is such that it normally comes after the window of time of maximum potential profit has passed - often just a month or two after a game is released.
 
Now, think about the scale of economy for sales of user generated content - and especially in the context of Skyrim modding. We all talk about how Skyrim modding is going strong - and yes, it is - but the user base isn't remotely what what is was in 2012 or 2013. So there are far far fewer potential "customers" now as compared to before. Even if everyone was really supportive and happy about the introduction of paid mods, I'd guess that you're still only looking at a potential customer base in the hundreds or thousands range for most individual mods, if you're fortunate.
 
So, it's completely unfair to make comparisons between the pricing of user generated content mods and official DLC content or even the games themselves.
 
Now, let's look at the two sides of this potential transaction - with the author as seller, and the mod user as buyer - with a hypothetical situation. I will assume that most mod authors will set the price according to how much time s/he has put into it and/or what s/he hopes to get, monetarily, out of its sales.

 

For my example, say I've got a custom modeled and textured armor & weapons set, and I spent 200 hours on it. Because I'm moving back there later this year, I'll pseudo-randomly pick Oregon, USA's generous state minimum wage of $9.25, and using that hourly rate, the author may consider a minimal payback for her/his work of $1850. But really, since those 200 hours was potential free time spent outside of her/his real job, s/he'd like more, and sets a goal of $3000 in total revenues from her/his mod.
 
Then to calculate the suggested price per buyer, this mod author looks at the number of endorsements one of her/his previously released mods from about 6 months ago, and sees 600 endorsements out of 9000 unique downloads. So based on those statistics, s/he sees that with the 25% cut that Steam content publishes receive, s/he would need to set the suggested price at $19.99, which is clearly way too high. So after giving it some thought, the author goes with a price of $4.99, which seems far more attractive, though to achieve that goal of $3000, 2,400 people would have to purchase the mod, with the author giving little thought to the fact that if that actually happened, Valve and Bethesda would receive gross revenue of $9000.
 
Now, the buyer's perspective. For many people who see the mod appear for sale on the Steam Workshop, they think "there are thousands of full games on Steam for $5, or less. Some really good games. Many are old games on sale, yes, but still, $5! The armor and weapon set looks really sweet, but there's so many other things that $5 would be better spent on" (like a Starbucks coffee, says the cynic in me!) So they pass. Others think "If I paid $5 for each of the 300 mods I already use that would cost me $1500! I can't even afford $1 per mod, let alone $5!" However, a small group of people, possibly including some portion of of the 600 who endorsed that other mod by the author, really love her/his work, and maybe because s/he also still offers some mods for free, decide to buy this new one. 300 people.
 
In the end, the author pockets $960 (whoops - we forgot about taxes, and also that the suggested price was $4.99, and some people bought it at the minimum of $1.99!, and finally that Valve only pays out in increments of $100, so there's $60 the author won't receive!)

 

Completely bitter over the whole thing after realizing that Valve / Bethesda pocketed well over $2500, much closer to the $3000 she had hoped to make, the mod author swears off modding and never returns.
 
Okay, yes, a totally invented scenario, but completely possible I believe, and highlights that this system does not easily allow for the idealistic scenario of a modding hobby turned profession ever coming true for most people.
 
In my opinion, for the paid mod scheme for Skyrim (or any other Bethesda games) to have any chance of success, alternative arrangements need to considered. True micro-payment pricing, going below $0.49, to address the issues with economy of scale for example. "But at 25%, how will the author ever make anything?" you may ask. Well, the revenue split is clearly going to make it very difficult, but you are sure to get a lot more people to buy your mod at $0.49 each than at $4.99. More than ten times as many? I'm not sure with the Skyrim mod user base clearly on the decline.

 

I've also seen revenue generated from download ad clicks suggested, but that won't ever be implemented on Steam as far I can tell, and things get murky when I imagine it being set up on Nexus because Valve and Bethesda aren't going to accept being cut out of a revenue stream scheme they've just introduced. Other ideas I've read include some kind of subscription-based revenue scheme, or offering mod author "packs" or author workshop access for a single payment. Oh - and also, true "Pay what you like" pricing that offers a $0.00 option. How about that?
 
Really, I think Valve and/or Nexus have to get pretty darned inventive before we can declare it something everyone agrees to and is happy with. As it stands now, though, it seems for most authors it will never make them as money as they were led to believe, setting aside all of the sticky tricky concerns regarding permissions for the use of or dependency on other people's work.
 
All of this said, I have absolutely no problem with people hoping to get some monetary return for all of their work, and especially in light of the complete and utter failure of the donation system / method, I support their pursuit using other avenues. I just don't support Valve's scheme and its terms.

Edited April 25, 2015 by keithinhanoi

[Saerileth]

You make some very good points keith, especially from an economic standpoint. Thanks you for an interesting read.

 

I'd like to comment about the "I can't give a mod for free here on Nexus, and asking for money for the same mod on Steam" thing you mentioned. That doesn't necessarily have to come from Valve (and even if there is such a clause in their terms, I really doubt they'd bother enforcing it). It might also be from the modder's own volition, because can you really ask money for something on one platform, and give it away somewhere else? How would you feel if you spent money on something and only later found out that you didn't need to? Customers who miss the Nexus link for some reason could quite easily feel duped and complain. So I think it's more a question of good form, rather than a legal issue. A paywall with an optional (maybe not so easily visible) free link is not the way to go for a true "pay what you want" scheme, that's what donations are for.

[keithinhanoi]

... and I forgot to say that I've been working on that post for the last 8 hours on and off.

 

And it continues:

 

Another Nexus News update from the Dark One, with some very interesting points and information.

 

There are now 58 paid Skyrim mods on the Steam Workshop which are Under Review (and by the way, the Steam Community itself is responsible for reviewing and flagging these mods since the Skyrim Workshop is "user curated".)

 

Some of them are clearly "joke" mods or intentional anti-paywall-mod commentary, but a good number seem to have been posted in earnest. I now see that the minimum asking price can be just $0.25 US, in the US-based Steam Workshop, at least, so that's kind of good for the whole "economy of scale" thing I explained (until you get to the 25% / 75% split part, of course.)

 

well, frozunswaidon has pulled the main download for Skyrim Realistic Texture Overhaul dragons 4K-8K and Advanced Skyrim Realistic Texture Overhaul Mountain

I would suggest that you grab the others before they disappear.

 

I have almost all of the mods from frozunswaidon, Chesko, Isoku in case any of them pull their stuff.

Oh, and the reason Frozenswaidon has pulled main downloads from Nexus is that he apparently has put them up to be Skyrim Workshop exclusives, here and here.

 

You make some very good points keith, especially from an economic standpoint. Thanks you for an interesting read.

 

I'd like to comment about the "I can't give a mod for free here on Nexus, and asking for money for the same mod on Steam" thing you mentioned. That doesn't necessarily have to come from Valve (and even if there is such a clause in their terms, I really doubt they'd bother enforcing it). It might also be from the modder's own volition, because can you really ask money for something on one platform, and give it away somewhere else? How would you feel if you spent money on something and only later found out that you didn't need to? Customers who miss the Nexus link for some reason could quite easily feel duped and complain. So I think it's more a question of good form, rather than a legal issue. A paywall with an optional (maybe not so easily visible) free link is not the way to go for a true "pay what you want" scheme, that's what donations are for.

Yes, I think what you're saying could be true, which is why I asked Laast for clarification on that statement. When I find out, I'll post back here.