GUIDE Overwrite vs. Override in Guide

[nickrud]

Hi, a very satisfied MO user here. While looking for the Guide link to give to a potential user I saw some language in the "What do the Flags mean?" topic box. May I suggest using override instead of overwrite there, and any other relevant location?

 

It better reflects what actually happens and would help prevent any confusion on the part of a new user - "MO claims to keep mods completely separate but it overwrites stuff?"

[nickrud]

z929669 (!), we must have been posting at the same time. Could you look back to the post just before yours and tell me what you think?

Edited May 8, 2014 by nickrud

[Tannin]

@z: We aren't talking about physics or mathematics here where one thing is definitively truth and one is definitively wrong. As I said: In the virtual directory files get overwritten as the mods are read into it. There is no difference between this overwrite and an overwrite on disk except that one happens in fleeting memory and one happens in persistent memory. Thus the term "overwrite" is not wrong, it may merely be misunderstood by users.

 

And no: The overwrite directory does not represent files that get overwritten on disk! MO doesn't overwrite stuff in the target directory (Skyrim/data) at all.

 

skse plugins and tools started from MO moved or created files into the target folder and since MO is supposed to keep that clean it redirected the files to the overwrite folder.

But for the purpose of reading "Overwrite" is treated like any other mod with guaranteed highest priority and thus gets to (virtually) overwrite the content of all other mods. It is always  if it conflicts. That's why it's called "Overwrite".

 

To rephrase: For the purpose of reading "overwrite" is a simple mod with priority infinite.

For writing "overwrite" is priority and catches all write accesses that haven't been assigned to another mod.

And there ends the specialness of "overwrite".

 

 

Tbh I do NOT think we should start talking about "override" to make a distinction from "overwrite" and we shouldn't talk about virtual overwrite.

When we explain to users how MO works, what we should say is:
"It works as if the mods got installed on-the-fly in the order they are arranged on the left pane whenever you start the game. In practice nothing changes on disk and the process is almost instantaneous but it works just like that. After the start, any files that would be created inside the skyrim/data directory or moved there are instead created in/moved to overwrite".

 

I think this is all the user needs to know about the workings of the virtual fs. Everything else is technical detail he may read up on if he cares but is not essential to use MO.

[z929669]

@nickrud

I agree with your suggestions ;)

 

@Tannin

OK, I was only thinking about the "Overwrite Mod" in terms that it is actually writing changes to disk ... it is not overwriting the source though, so I am guilty as charged for spreading this misinformation. I agree with your assessment of how MO works. This is a good and simple explanation.

 

However, with respect to speaking conversationally about how mod managers work, I think it is important to use a static nomenclature with respect to them all (i.e., overwrite / override, load order / install order). Where this is not possible with respect to MO, then it seems prudent to create an analogous term that is unique and not conflicting with the traditional paradigm. Hence, Skyrim modding "overwrite" = MO modding "virtual overwrite" and 'override' means the same, regardless. One area of complete confusion to anyone not intimately familiar with MO (whether they are modding novices or experts .. or perhaps just me) is the conflation of the concept of "overwrite" and the term "overwrite mod". By your explanation above, the "overwrite mod" could be "maximum priority mod" or even "MO Mod" just to avoid this conflation of terminology (one describes an abstract concept and the other describes a concrete thing). Just a suggestion.

 

Oh, and Truth is Truth and is not constrained to physics and math IMHO ;) I only meant to address a thing that constantly frustrates the hell out of me: the human tendency to name things whimsically or based on some convolution rooted in tradition rather than using logic and reason to dictate what we call things. Case in point: the idiotic 'tradition' of naming databases after Greek gods and godesses :O_o: ... rather than based on the data they contain.

 

For the record, I don't think that you are in any way doing anything analogous to this with respect to MO ... regardless, your program, your call. It is still a valuable tool. We are only talking about semantics here :P

 

Regardless of what you decide to do or not to do, I will not have any trouble following along. I did when I first started using MO though.

[wolverine2710]

Wow, good discussion. I think Tannin explained it rather well and its usable for the regular end user. I was for the word override but I can live with overwrite if its explained this way. Remains the question: where should we put the explanation about the overwrite mechanism.

[Uhuru]

What the names are is not really as important as the fact that they are different, I never suggested Load Order and Mod Order as the names, that was justdescribing where the words Priority occur.
Let me make clear I suggest these changes, not because we old hands are confused, but because new users are.
So specifically
New user asks about Load Order and Mod Order, to ensure they know exactly what we are talking about, we specify Left and Right pane. An actual response made "no priority in left pane confused", to them categories Filter can be Left pane, vewing filters can also hide Mods List priority tab.
That is the lesser issue though, I just think when getting Load Order right is vital, different names (whatever they are) helps.
 
Overwrite though is the big problem, If you read OP of this thread the "Override" suggestion was picked up and fast tracked (Wiki Edited), until it was realised the names in MO must match the Wiki, this was when I joined in, saying that was what I said i my OP about this, but I made the mistake (in my OP thread) of suggesting alternate names, which sidetracked the discusion into a naqme choosing debate.
First we must decide, if we change and only when and if the change is agreed by you (Tannin), does what they become matter.
 
Even z929669 got confused at first by Overwrite folder, it's difficult for most users coming from NMM and even Wrye Bash. Overwrite means Install Order Conflict Winner to them, thats what they know, it's been that way a long time. Since Oblivion for sure, maybe even in Morrowind.
 
As to the amount of work changing entails, I'm not sure whether all you mention is part of MO itself so I don't know for sure but specific to what I do know.
I do not expect you (Tannin) to change anything at all outside of the program.
In the program for Overwite specifically
Bottom of Mod List Name (and maybe actual Overwite folder dependant on effect to internal, hidden from user, MO referencing)
References
 Built in Tutorial will have references as well I'm sure, thats all I actually know about.

Similar for Priority Tab whichever was changed assuming one kept that name.
Juist the Tab Name
 
Basically, only what the user can see.
 
All outside MO references would not be your (Tannin's) job, that's what the supportive users would do and had started doing with wiki, because of this threads OP.
 
Summary (My Opinion only)
First decision to change or not made for each issue in isolation (Your call) we can only give our opinions.
Only if the decision is "change", does any need to choose the name arise. They are separate decisions.
 
Hope that clarifies what I'm meaning to say.
 

[spoiler=Note to Self]You are supposed to be gaming on this expensive games machine, not writing in forums, post at work like you are supposed to be doing, on that cheap and nasty phone (Note to Others: My boss knows, because I'm self employed)