SKYRIMLE LOOT v0.5.0 Beta 15 & MO

[Kuldebar]

OK, who is using these together and what's the word?

 

Quote

 

LOOT is the spiritual successor to BOSS, and was originally planned for release as BOSS v3. However, because it operates in a very different way to BOSS, it was decided to instead release it as a separate utility.

 

[Kuldebar]

fireundubh, on 27 Apr 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

My brain explodes when I read this kind of paranoia.

In your otherwise excellent post, what "paranoia" are you referring to?

 

The whole issue that users in this forum topic revolves around the problem of what to do when LOOT is wrong or when and if you need to override it.

 

There's simply no real way to know this because LOOT is a magic box that users can't readily look into. Yes, it's exceptionally great that LOOT looks at real data and not the humanly-fallible volunteer data that BOSS used.

 

I recall the days of ripping my CD's to MP3's and using the CDDB to fill in the title, artist and track info...it wasn't perfect, but I could edit/revise any errors I noticed and resubmit the album information. If enough people agreed with my edit...it would gain a higher placement in the growing database. As an error checking mechanism, it worked rather well if the sampling rate was high enough over time.

 

My point is that, when you take away that and replace it with an automated system that scans encoded data burned into the record...well it's mostly hands off for the user.

 

Quote

And LOOT is superior to BOSS in every way.

 

Not every way from the standpoint of users who like to have a modicum of understanding and responsibility over their data.

 

The black-box represents the sea-change that's been occurring in technology over the last three decades. It's the reason Joe the Mechanic down the street can't fix your new fangled computerized car or when your microwave oven stops working you don't take it in for repairs...you just buy another one.

 

Yes, LOOT is the future, blah, blah. I said as much already in my earlier posts here, but in order for LOOT to get a less grudging acceptance it needs to remind itself that thinking sentient beings play games and sit in front of computers. They (usually) like comprehending things. This is the same reason doctors usually try to explain the surgery they are to perform on their patients...

 

After all history has examples of "superior" losing out to the mere acceptable.

[MadWizard25]

Think of LOOT's sorting mechanism as an automated TES5Edit that identifies conflicts and moves mods around until you have the least number of conflicts.

That may be, but its not always the ideal situation. Least number of conflicts does not necessarily correspond to correct overwrite order. So far i think both BOSS and LOOT are on par on the user side. If you want a good load order you will have to manually move plugins around and almost certainly create a custom conflict resolution patch using Tes5edit. This is irrespective of LOOT or BOSS use.

 

LOOT is much better from the developer side because of the metadata and algorithm, no volunteer updates/ assumptions of testing as you said.

 

As a user with a large mod list, using either BOSS or LOOT does not make too much difference to me.

Edited April 27, 2014 by MadWizard25

[fireundubh]

In your otherwise excellent post, what "paranoia" are you referring to?

 

The whole issue that users in this forum topic revolves around the problem of what to do when LOOT is wrong or when and if you need to override it. There's simply no real way to know this because LOOT is a magic box that users can't readily look into. Yes, it's exceptionally great that LOOT looks at real data and not the humanly-fallible volunteer data that BOSS used.

 

n order for LOOT to get a less grudging acceptance it needs to remind itself that thinking sentient beings play games and sit in front of computers. They (usually) like comprehending things. This is the same reason doctors usually try to explain the surgery they are to perform on their patients...

 

Paranoia/fear/uncertainty:

[*]"I downloaded and installed and ran LOOT...but the load order it generated was so insanely different than my previous stable BOSS Load Order that I simply can't trust the results. I mean, LOOT had WATER up near the top of the list, had my follower mods spread out in all sort of places. I can't reconcile the fact that its ordering would be so dramatically different than BOSS."

[*]"It is indeed drastically different, which is why I'm working with BOSS until I figure the whole LOOT thing out."

[*]"it change that entire order and i dont know if that its good or bad"

Okay, that's three people, but "change is scary" is a common theme in every discussion of LOOT that I've read through.

 

As for magic black boxes, I don't care how a car works. I just want it to get me from point A to point B and back, quickly and safely.

 

I do realize the irony of me saying that after just explaining how something works.  ::

 

LOOT isn't really a black box though. It's just that the language of that black box is the indecipherable gibberish known as C++. Just like medical terminology and your doctor's handwriting!

 

If the surgeon's attempt at explaining the specific surgical techniques that will correct your specific anatomical problems is too technical, there's documentation, too.

 

Least number of conflicts does not necessarily correspond to correct overwrite order.

 

LOOT recognizes this problem, which is why there's a metadata masterlist. You can also create your own metadata userlists.

Edited April 28, 2014 by fireundubh

[Neovalen]

I work with that "indecipherable" gibberish every day and write code in it... honestly the code doesn't look that complicated. ;)

[Kuldebar]

fireundubh, on 27 Apr 2014 - 5:18 PM, said:

 

Paranoia/fear/uncertainty:

[*]"I downloaded and installed and ran LOOT...but the load order it generated was so insanely different than my previous stable BOSS Load Order that I simply can't trust the results. I mean, LOOT had WATER up near the top of the list, had my follower mods spread out in all sort of places. I can't reconcile the fact that its ordering would be so dramatically different than BOSS."

[*]"It is indeed drastically different, which is why I'm working with BOSS until I figure the whole LOOT thing out."

[*]"it change that entire order and i dont know if that its good or bad"

Okay, that's three people, but "change is scary" is a common theme in every discussion of LOOT that I've read through.

 

As for magic black boxes, I don't care how a car works. I just want it to get me from point A to point B and back, quickly and safely.

 

I do realize the irony of me saying that after just explaining how something works.  ::

 

LOOT isn't really a black box though. It's just that the language of that black box is the indecipherable gibberish known as C++. Just like medical terminology and your doctor's handwriting!

 

If the surgeon's attempt at explaining the specific surgical techniques that will correct your specific anatomical problems is too technical, there's documentation, too.

 

 

LOOT recognizes this problem, which is why there's a metadata masterlist. You can also create your own metadata userlists.

And you illustrate the problem perfectly. You may not care how your car works if it gets you from point A to point B...but what about the time when it doesn't?

 

When I started a new game with a load order made by the latest release of LOOT and I CTD'd consistently on launch. How could I possibly begin to figure out why? All previous "logic" is thrown out the window...I can not reconcile what I know of a sensible, proven/known good load order and what LOOT produces. I don't have any problem at all letting LOOT do all the work...but when there's a problem, the human is left holding the bag.

 

I did do the only thing that I know has worked for me consistently: I used BOSS. Thus by having a saved BOSS loadorder.txt from Mod Organizer on hand, I was able to load up without a hitch and my character is level 49 at present.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Kuldebar

[fireundubh]

You were trying to load a save with a new load order? edit: Nevermind. The 49 thing threw me.

 

CTDs on launch are almost always caused by missing masters. Plugins check for masters above them in the load order. So, it's possible that you have a special case mod.

 

Here's how I roll a load order:

 

• MO: Make sure that mods that overwrite stuff are placed below foundational mods, like the unofficial patches, fixes, and graphics replacers.
• LOOT: Apply the load order.
• Wrye Bash: Identify issues relating to missing masters and plugins with out-of-order masters.
• MO: Remove mods with missing masters.
• TES5Edit: Correct plugins with out-of-order masters. Save and exit.
• TES5Edit: Load the entire load order and check for conflicts.
• TES5Edit: Load conflicting mods and create a patch, if necessary.
• LOOT: If I created a patch, apply a new load order.
• Wrye Bash: Generate a bashed patch.
• MO: Clear the overwrite folder except for the bashed patch and other patches.
• FNIS: Try very hard to remember to run FNIS again.
• Start a new game with Papyrus logging turned on.
• Check BareTail real-time monitor of Papyrus log on second monitor for problems on initialization.
• No problems? Exit, turn logging off, and play the game.
• Get annoyed by the lack of some feature, go searching for a mod, create the mod instead, and go back to #1, never progressing any further in the main quest than Riverwood.

Edited April 28, 2014 by fireundubh

[Kuldebar]

 

You were trying to load a save with a new load order? edit: Nevermind. The 49 thing threw me.

 

CTDs on launch are almost always caused by missing masters. Plugins check for masters above them in the load order. So, it's possible that you have a special case mod.

 

Here's how I roll a load order:

 

• MO: Make sure that mods that overwrite stuff are placed below foundational mods, like the unofficial patches, fixes, and graphics replacers.
• LOOT: Apply the load order.
• Wrye Bash: Identify issues relating to missing masters and plugins with out-of-order masters.
• MO: Remove mods with missing masters.
• TES5Edit: Correct plugins with out-of-order masters. Save and exit.
• TES5Edit: Load the entire load order and check for conflicts.
• TES5Edit: Load conflicting mods and create a patch, if necessary.
• LOOT: If I created a patch, apply a new load order.
• Wrye Bash: Generate a bashed patch.
• MO: Clear the overwrite folder except for the bashed patch and other patches.
• FNIS: Try very hard to remember to run FNIS again.
• Start a new game with Papyrus logging turned on.
• Check BareTail real-time monitor of Papyrus log on second monitor for problems on initialization.
• No problems? Exit, turn logging off, and play the game.
• Get annoyed by the lack of some feature, go searching for a mod, create the mod instead, and go back to #1, never progressing any further in the main quest than Riverwood.

That's an excellent process you have laid out, I'll use those steps prior to my next play through.

 

I always run a test before actually playing. I have a clean save with only official files (not even USP stuff).

[Garfink]

Agree, at first I thought the loot load-order was BONKERS, but my game is running FINE, better than FINE since using it.  I only had to make very specific changes to the load-order for very specific person reasons, like I wanted mod A to intentionally override mod B.  But on the whole, I left the load order alone as recommended by LOOT and it just works.  Now, adding new mods and adding patches or merged esps to BUM is a thing of the past!  I just love it.

[keithinhanoi]

fireundubh, thanks for taking the time to explain LOOT and helping to calm some concerns voiced here. It's clear that LOOT is lightyears ahead of BOSS in its approach, implementation and reduction of time-sucking rules masterlist maintenance. However, I'd to complement your issues over "paranoia" as you call it with my issues over claims I've been seeing that LOOT will basically solve all of your game's compatibility issues. The bottom line is that there is still only one way to guarantee all "true" conflicts are resolved with one's particular line-up of mods: end user intervention, and that is only accomplished with TES5Edit (and/or in some cases CK.) Steps 3-7 in your great list of load order procedures highlights this: 

Here's how I roll a load order: <snip> 3. Wrye Bash: Identify issues relating to missing masters and plugins with out-of-order masters.4. MO: Remove mods with missing masters.5. TES5Edit: Correct plugins with out-of-order masters. Save and exit.6. TES5Edit: Load the entire load order and check for conflicts.7. TES5Edit: Load conflicting mods and create a patch, if necessary. <snip>

 

Plugins with missing masters is a problem, yes, since LOOT will take listed masters into consideration when calculating the order. And a lot of existing compatibility patches will be missing "explicit" masters because they don't include any unique FormIDs from one or both of the mods they are patching. I can also see how a algorithmically calculated order based on the lowest number of conflicting records may not match the mods' intents.

 

As you mentioned, editing the metadata in LOOT can help with resolving some of these things, but it still required end-user knowledge of what's going on, and that is best ascertained by viewing the "big picture" in TES5Edit.

 

And it goes beyond just knowing what the colored text means in TES5Edit. It means being more familiar with what different types of records do, how they interact together, and very importantly, how that relates to the function / intent of the mod.

 

Of course, there's things you won't see in TES5Edit, particularly with Papyrus scripts, one overwriting another, and the "winning" mod in the load order expecting a different version of the script.

 

With the kinds of astoundingly long lists of mods that many people are trying to get working together these days, I find it amazing that there's still a seemingly prevailing sense that it requires very little understanding or intervention or work.

 

LOOT is an amazing tool, but by no means will it work compatibility miracles with your mods. It still requires help from something between the chair and the computer screen.

Edited April 28, 2014 by keithinhanoi

[MadWizard25]

 

LOOT recognizes this problem, which is why there's a metadata masterlist. You can also create your own metadata userlists.

 

Yeah exactly what I meant. I end up creating custom rules, just like with BOSS. Admittedly there are less custom rules, but I would still argue that if you use tes5edit for conflict patches, using LOOT and BOSS makes little difference.

[fireundubh]

Yeah exactly what I meant. I end up creating custom rules, just like with BOSS. Admittedly there are less custom rules, but I would still argue that if you use tes5edit for conflict patches, using LOOT and BOSS makes little difference.

 

There's a world of difference between tailored finery and ready-made clothing, especially when the storebought styles are frozen in time.

 

Chew on that analogy. 

[Kuldebar]

Running a test game with LOOT as the load order utility for my 179 mods.  Everything is working fine so far, and yes...the load order makes no sense to me when I look at it, but it's not supposed to.

 

It has gone very smoothly:

 

1. Ran LOOT, applied load order

 

2. Ran TES5Edit sorted masters for some ETAC related ESP's.

 

3. Ran WryeBash and made the bash patch.

 

4. Played game.

[MadWizard25]

There's a world of difference between tailored finery and ready-made clothing, especially when the storebought styles are frozen in time.

 

Chew on that analogy. 

 

I did, and concluded that buying store bought styles frozen in time and then sprucing them up myself works just as fine as buying tailored finery 

[Kuldebar]

Gopher has a LOOT Video Tutorial out:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzoyWugzZAw

 

 

My two cents:

I have been using and testing LOOT getting ready for a new play-through with some mod changes and SkyRe and ReProccer stuff, color me very impressed. Yes, I still feel uneasy about not being able to eye-ball mod order stuff as I was able to with BOSS...but my trust in LOOT has increased dramatically because it works.

 

 

 

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[wolverine2710]

I've mentioned it in this thread before. A few weeks ago I made the switch from BOSS to LOOT without any problems. Now I'm at level 47 and all is smooth. So it seems to be working fine. Its entirely possible there are a few conflicts but I've not noticed them. With BOSS I had 20+ and counting plugins which were not in the BOSS masterlist so I had to guess where to put them as I'm lacking the Tes5Edit knowledge to precisely know where to put them. One day.....

 

TLDR: Switched with an existing game from BOSS to LOOT and now 20 levels further Skyrim is still stable as a rock.