DynDOLOD 3.00 Alpha 182

[PRieST]

Ah got it, so at first the whiterunworld isn't loaded in whole and a few seconds later the whiterunworld cells are getting loaded and so the LODs are vanishing.

Never noticed this before, that's why I was confused.

[sheson]

1 hour ago, PRieST said:

Ah got it, so at first the whiterunworld isn't loaded in whole and a few seconds later the whiterunworld cells are getting loaded and so the LODs are vanishing.

Never noticed this before, that's why I was confused.

5x5 cells are loaded around the player as usual. The player character is simply crossing a cell border, a new row of cells attaches, LOD for those cells is disabled.

[ikonomov]

On 2/20/2021 at 12:36 PM, sheson said:

If a cell has 200 grass placements for a grass type and the grass density is set to 50, then only 100 placements instead of the original 200  are added to the object LOD BTO for that cell.

Make sure to actually look at LOD beyond the uLargeRefLODGridSize. You might also keep more frames by having grass LOD start right beyond the UGridsToLoad.

This is a perfect explanation, thank you.  I have selected the Ultra setting the first time I started the launcher, and in the .ini I saw uLargeRefLODGridSize=11.  It seems 11 is pretty far and the reason why I had a hard time not being able to see the grass density change as I lowered the GrassDensity with GrassLargeReference=1.  Once I knew what to look for I was able to see clearly the grass beyond the large reference distance.  I did some more testing and here is what I found:

1. Using
DynDOLODGrassMode=2 (GrassControl.config.txt)
uLargeRefLODGridSize=11 (SkyrimPrefs.ini)
GrassLargeReference=1 with GrassDensity=30 (DynDOLOD_SSE.ini)
extends the grass very far with framerates dropping to about 60 fps.  The grass does change density at the limit of those 11 grids, but it is so far that unless specifically looking for it it seems almost undetectable.  The No Grass In Objects mod seems to perform very well with DynDOLODGrassMode=2 setting, and the extended grass seems to not change at all regardless of the viewing distance.

2. Using
DynDOLODGrassMode=1 (GrassControl.config.txt)
GrassLargeReference=0 with GrassDensity=100 (DynDOLOD_SSE.ini)
extends the grass without a limit and also results in framerate dropping to about 60 fps in areas with heavy grass like around Whiterun.  There is a visible transition as the active cell loads, but since it is not just the grass that gets rendered, it is the terrain that seems to be the most obvious.  I've played bit with the brightness settings, and I think I've found a slight improvement for more "seamless" transition for the vanilla grass at least.
GrassBrightnessTopR=0.300
GrassBrightnessTopG=0.334
GrassBrightnessTopB=0.337
GrassBrightnessBottomR=0.240
GrassBrightnessBottomG=0.267
GrassBrightnessBottomB=0.270

My next question is regarding tree LODs.

While looking at distant objects, I noticed the HD/Ultra trees having this brightness/highlight parts during certain times of the day.  When they are rendered from up close I can see some of this variation, but it seems to be much less than the images of the billboards.  The real trouble is that when there are many trees in one place this bright crown of the trees seems to become more obvious.  I couldn't find a similar brightness settings for the trees, and I wonder if there is a way to adjust the brightness for the highlights of the tree billboard textures.

Edited February 21, 2021 by ikonomov

[sheson]

12 hours ago, ikonomov said:

While looking at distant objects, I noticed the HD/Ultra trees having this brightness/highlight parts during certain times of the day.  When they are rendered from up close I can see some of this variation, but it seems to be much less than the images of the billboards.  The real trouble is that when there are many trees in one place this bright crown of the trees seems to become more obvious.  I couldn't find a similar brightness settings for the trees, and I wonder if there is a way to adjust the brightness for the highlights of the tree billboard textures.

Brightness of tree LOD billboards can be adjusted on the DynDOLOD advanced options as usual or when generating tree LOD billboards with TexGen.

[ikonomov]

I've run both the TexGen and DynDOLOD about 10 times in the past few hours, each time regenerating everything.
I've tried settings from the default
Direct: 135, Ambient: 55 to
Direct: 0, Ambient: 15
I think having the Direct lighting at 0 made the bright highlights from the top of the trees slightly less, but I'm not really sure.  It is definitely still there, even with 0.  The Ambient at 15 is really low also.  If the "Preview" in TexGen is to be believed I should see really, really dark distant trees yet that is not happening.  Each time I'm testing it I'm loading a clean saved game I've made without any mods.  The brightness setting in DynDOLOD says Billboard brightness, which I assume will include grass billboards, which I don't want to change.  This highlight seems to be most visible on the few trees around Whiterun in the afternoon.  The trees around Lakeview Manor don't seem to have this behavior for some reason.  When I run DynDOLOD I select Ultra for tree LODs.

Edited February 22, 2021 by ikonomov

[ikonomov]

Some of the smaller trees have the same highlights in lower branches, but on the taller trees it looks to be mostly at the top of the trees.  It becomes especially noticeable when there are more tall trees together.

Edited February 22, 2021 by ikonomov

[sheson]

5 hours ago, ikonomov said:

I've run both the TexGen and DynDOLOD about 10 times in the past few hours, each time regenerating everything.
I've tried settings from the default
Direct: 135, Ambient: 55 to
Direct: 0, Ambient: 15
I think having the Direct lighting at 0 made the bright highlights from the top of the trees slightly less, but I'm not really sure.  It is definitely still there, even with 0.  The Ambient at 15 is really low also.  If the "Preview" in TexGen is to be believed I should see really, really dark distant trees yet that is not happening.  Each time I'm testing it I'm loading a clean saved game I've made without any mods.  The brightness setting in DynDOLOD says Billboard brightness, which I assume will include grass billboards, which I don't want to change.  This highlight seems to be most visible on the few trees around Whiterun in the afternoon.  The trees around Lakeview Manor don't seem to have this behavior for some reason.  When I run DynDOLOD I select Ultra for tree LODs.

Are you sure you are using billboards or HD billboards for tree LOD and that the screenshots are not showing 3D tree LOD?

What tree mod are you using? If the full model trees have this highlight, then why should LOD be any different? How do full models looks at the same distance? Use tfc and fly away from full models about the same distance.

Are you saying that the trees around Lakeview Manor are the same full model/billboards as around Whiterun but somehow look different?

[ikonomov]

6 hours ago, sheson said:

Are you sure you are using billboards or HD billboards for tree LOD and that the screenshots are not showing 3D tree LOD?

With previous 2.xx DynDOLOD versions I used Indistinguishable Billboards for Skyrim SE (VANILLA Medium).  Since one of the new changes in TexGen 3.00 said that it can now generate LOD billboards for grass and trees I assumed that I no longer need to use that mod, so I haven't installed it.  When I run TexGen I have Tree and HD Tree enabled, then when I run DynDOLOD I enable Ultra for tree LODs.

6 hours ago, sheson said:

What tree mod are you using?

I'm not using any tree mods.

6 hours ago, sheson said:

If the full model trees have this highlight, then why should LOD be any different?

There is a bit of highlight of the full model trees, but maybe it's 20%, while on the billboards it is say 100%.  I wouldn't mind some highlights, but the problem and what I tried to show is that while there's some highlights on the full model trees, it is happening on the needles throughout the whole tree and very little of it.  On the billboards there seems to be some threshold above which highlights and the increased brightness is really pushed, and because it is mostly at the crown of those pine trees it is very obvious.

6 hours ago, sheson said:

How do full models looks at the same distance? Use tfc and fly away from full models about the same distance.

That's how I've been testing.  The full models look fine and don't have this problem.

6 hours ago, sheson said:

Are you saying that the trees around Lakeview Manor are the same full model/billboards as around Whiterun but somehow look different?

I think the trees around Lakeview Manor and Whiterun use the same models.  My guess is that around Whiterun the lighting is a bit different which accentuates the highlights.

Edit: I should add that I'm not using any weather mods.  The only lighting mods I have installed are Darker Interior Ambient Fog and Darker Nights (Level 4).

Edited February 22, 2021 by ikonomov

[sheson]

18 minutes ago, ikonomov said:

With previous 2.xx DynDOLOD versions I used Indistinguishable Billboards for Skyrim SE (VANILLA Medium).  Since one of the new changes in TexGen 3.00 said that it can now generate LOD billboards for grass and trees I assumed that I no longer need to use that mod, so I haven't installed it.  When I run TexGen I have Tree and HD Tree enabled, then when I run DynDOLOD I enable Ultra for tree LODs.

This does not answer the question if the screenshots show tree LOD billboards whatever their source or 3D tree LOD models.

20 minutes ago, ikonomov said:

There is a bit of highlight of the full model trees, but maybe it's 20%, while on the billboards it is say 100%.  I wouldn't mind some highlights, but the problem and what I tried to show is that while there's some highlights on the full model trees, it is happening on the needles throughout the whole tree and very little of it.  On the billboards there seems to be some threshold above which highlights and the increased brightness is really pushed, and because it is mostly at the crown of those pine trees it is very obvious.

Textures are just images do not really have thresholds.

23 minutes ago, ikonomov said:

I think the trees around Lakeview Manor and Whiterun use the same models.  My guess is that around Whiterun the lighting is a bit different which accentuates the highlights.

Use console to check which base record and NIF the full model trees are using and also to set a specific weather regardless of location.

[ikonomov]

I think this image shows it as good as I can see it in-game.  I believe they are billboards, because once the model loads when I walk closer I can see the trees slightly change, as it happens with billboards.  These are the trees just west of Silent Moons Camp.  The problem happens to a number of full tree models, not just one.  I'm not sure how I can select it when the console is open to get the formIDs for those trees.  The weather ID is 10A243.

[sheson]

1 hour ago, ikonomov said:

I think this image shows it as good as I can see it in-game.  I believe they are billboards, because once the model loads when I walk closer I can see the trees slightly change, as it happens with billboards.  These are the trees just west of Silent Moons Camp.  The problem happens to a number of full tree models, not just one.  I'm not sure how I can select it when the console is open to get the formIDs for those trees.  The weather ID is 10A243.

You should know if you set Level0 or Billboard1/2/3 etc. for LOD Level 4 for the tree mesh rule.

To get information for a tree get close to it so that the full model is loaded, then open console and click it. More Informative Console will also display the used full model.

Generate LOD with current version of DynDOLOD 2.x and teh same ultra tree LOD settings to see if it actually is different.

 

[ikonomov]

52 minutes ago, sheson said:

You should know if you set Level0 or Billboard1/2/3 etc. for LOD Level 4 for the tree mesh rule.

To get information for a tree get close to it so that the full model is loaded, then open console and click it. More Informative Console will also display the used full model.

Generate LOD with current version of DynDOLOD 2.x and teh same ultra tree LOD settings to see if it actually is different.

 

I haven't changed or added any mesh rules.  The only changes to the DynDOLOD_SSE.ini I've made are:

Occlusion=1
OcclusionQuality=3
Grass=1
GrassBrightnessTopR=0.300
GrassBrightnessTopG=0.334
GrassBrightnessTopB=0.337
GrassBrightnessBottomR=0.240
GrassBrightnessBottomG=0.267
GrassBrightnessBottomB=0.270

and removing the mod warning for Open Cities.

I've read the Performance section of the second post, but I don't understand the mesh rule section.  If I need to change any of those settings or add in rules just let me know what and I can test.

Using the More Informative Console mod I was able to identify the one tree where this problem is most obvious, with the brightness/highlights only happening towards the top of the tree.

Base form ID: 00051126
TreePineForest05.nif

Another tree also has this problem, but the brightness/highlights are not just at the top, but also on lower branches.  The highlights are still too strong, but at least they are not just at the top so it's not as obvious.

Base form ID: 0004B016
TreePineForest03.nif

Just to clarify about using DynDOLOD 2.x.  I need to run TexGen from 3.00, generate Grass/Tree billboards, and then run DynDOLOD 2.x with the Ultra trees selected, correct?

[sheson]

2 hours ago, ikonomov said:

I haven't changed or added any mesh rules.  The only changes to the DynDOLOD_SSE.ini I've made are:

Occlusion=1
OcclusionQuality=3
Grass=1
GrassBrightnessTopR=0.300
GrassBrightnessTopG=0.334
GrassBrightnessTopB=0.337
GrassBrightnessBottomR=0.240
GrassBrightnessBottomG=0.267
GrassBrightnessBottomB=0.270

and removing the mod warning for Open Cities.

I've read the Performance section of the second post, but I don't understand the mesh rule section.  If I need to change any of those settings or add in rules just let me know what and I can test.

Using the More Informative Console mod I was able to identify the one tree where this problem is most obvious, with the brightness/highlights only happening towards the top of the tree.

Base form ID:
TreePineForest05.nif

Another tree also has this problem, but the brightness/highlights are not just at the top, but also on lower branches.  The highlights are still too strong, but at least they are not just at the top so it's not as obvious.

Base form ID: 0004B016
TreePineForest03.nif

Just to clarify about using DynDOLOD 2.x.  I need to run TexGen from 3.00, generate Grass/Tree billboards, and then run DynDOLOD 2.x with the Ultra trees selected, correct?

Ultra tree LOD generation is explained in ..\DynDOLOD\docs\trees.ultra\DynDOLOD-Trees.html

Depending on your preference,  you either set Billboard1 or Level0 (Billboard or Static LOD4 in DynDOLOD 2.x)  for LOD Level 4 on the tree mesh rule for billboards or 3D tree LOD models in the first LOD level. The default value depends on the low, medium or high preset.

Do not use anything from DynDOLOD/TexGen 3 Alpha with DynDOLOD/TexGen 2.x

I am under the impression you used ultra tree LOD with DynDOLOD 2.x before and you didn't notice anything like with it. You seem to believe this is due to tree LOD billboards generated by TexGen 3 alpha. I would like to compare to the 2.x LOD generation you had before.

For DynDOLOD 3, open ..\DynDOLOD\Logs\DynDOLOD_SSE_Tree_Report.txt, search for 00051126
If should either say Level0: Billboard1 using internal or Level0: meshes\dyndolod\lod\trees\treepineforest05passthru_lod.nif using texture...

For DynDOLDO 2.x the similar looking tree LOD report is printed to the normal message log.

I need to know if the tree LOD is billboards or 3D LOD models so I know what to actually look at. I also need to know if this is a new issue or already existed before.

[ikonomov]

I just installed
Indistinguishable Billboards for Skyrim SE (VANILLA Medium)
DynDOLOD 2.88 Resources
DynDOLOD 2.93
generated textures using the default settings
generated LODs with DynDOLOD > Advanced > High (two times because of Open Cities)

and after I read some of the DynDOLOD-Trees.html I think I have an idea about what is going on.  Because the trees change their shape three times depending on how far I am from them I think I'm seeing three different versions of them.  Assuming the High settings set LOD 4 to use Static LOD4, and the same for DynDOLOD 3.0.  What I see is the highlights accentuated in Static LOD4 even with 2.x, but because this only happens at a very specific distance it was not very obvious because the majority of trees use the billboards (Indistinguishable) at a far distance and the ones up close use the full models.  I understand Static LOD4 use part of the full models for the branches, I think the highlights get accentuated because of the fog that gets applied at a distance which seems to make the highlights even brighter.  On billboards with DynDOLOD 3.0 the highlights get even brighter the further away they get as the fog gets denser.  Logically this should not be a problem, because the fog brightness should affect all color shades the same, but I think as the objects get smaller and they are scaled down, the needles that reflect the sunlight and become bright scale in such a way that it makes a whole section of the tree brighter.

For some reason the brightness control for Tree texture generation in TexGen 3.0 didn't have any affect for me, but I believe if it works with a bit of adjustment it might be possible to tone down the direct/ambient light in such a way to minimize this at least for the billboards.  I understand at Static LOD4 there will be some of this brightness still, but even so it's not as bad as the billboards.  A solution could be to have a separate direct/ambient control for Static LOD4 as well if possible, or we can just use billboards for LOD 4.

Edit: I just checked the log from running DynDOLOD 2.x and I see meshes being used for LOD4, this should indicate Static LOD4 used, correct?

Edit2: If somebody else is reading this they might be wondering, why don't I just use the Indistinguishable billboards with DynDOLOD 3.0.  The answer is that I don't like the Indistinguishable Juniper tree billboards.  I thought about mixing the billboards from Indistinguishable and 3.0, but then I decided discussing the problem here might be a good idea since the project is still in alpha phase.

Edited February 22, 2021 by ikonomov

[ikonomov]

I was just trying to compare the billboard of TreePineForest05 between Indistinguishable and the one generated by TexGen 3.0.  It seems they are different.  Indistiguishable uses one .DDS file while TexGen 3.0 has created 4 just for this tree and when I open them they are mostly just black.  I'm using an older nvidia photoshop DDS plugin 8.55.0109.1800 downloaded before it required a subscription.  I imagine the intel plugin is even older and has even less chance of opening those files correctly.  I wish I can compare those files side by side and see where this highlight is coming from, though that isn't really going to be helping much.

I also forgot to set the weather when testing with 2.x to the same one used in the previous two screenshots in the animated .gif with 3.0 version, but I think I know why I didn't see the highlights around Lakeview Manor.  It happens when I'm looking at the trees facing the sun in the afternoon.  Strangely enough if I turn around facing east during the same time of the day looking at the same trees from standing west of them I don't see the same hightlights.  I'll install back 3.0 and take some more screenshots.

Edited February 23, 2021 by ikonomov