Little help with load order

[popanE]

I need a bit of help with load order. I've completed my list and going through each plugin one at a time to place them correctly post loot.  If anyone could have a look at it and let me know of any stand outs and where I should put the in LO.  When I go to launch it just does the open take few seconds and the closes back to mo2 so I'm pretty sure is just LO not right.

Thanks 

loadorder.txtFetching info...

[TadasTheLithuanian]

You are posting in a wrong sub forum. You have 1546 items in your load order full of mods unrelated with step guide. I don't know who can help you here.

[popanE]

ok thanks. new to site, get a bit lost. 

[z929669]

  On 11/25/2023 at 12:18 PM, popanE said:

I need a bit of help with load order. I've completed my list and going through each plugin one at a time to place them correctly post loot.  If anyone could have a look at it and let me know of any stand outs and where I should put the in LO.  When I go to launch it just does the open take few seconds and the closes back to mo2 so I'm pretty sure is just LO not right.

loadorder.txt 48.36 kB · 0 downloads

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Why do you think it's wrong? Just sort with LOOT and trust the result unless you know one or more mods are sorted incorrectly by LOOT. Then you can report it to the LOOT team with some data to validate your claim.

If you have a personal preference that one plugin overrides others or that multiples of certain plugins are grouped together, then do that, and sort with LOOT after. LOOT will sort only mods it knows must be sorted in a particular priority with respect to each other but will leave alone any customization of the priority otherwise.

And please DO NOT douple post in multiple (inappropriate) forums just to get your post answered. Use the correct forum to make a single post.

[Mousetick]

  On 11/25/2023 at 10:47 AM, popanE said:

When I go to launch it just does the open take few seconds and the closes back to mo2 so I'm pretty sure is just LO not right.

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The game has crashed.

Ensure there are no warnings in MO2 regarding your LO. Ensure there are no errors in LOOT. Look carefully at all the warnings in LOOT - typically they're pretty benign but some of them may require taking corrective action.

  On 11/25/2023 at 10:47 AM, popanE said:

I've completed my list and going through each plugin one at a time to place them correctly post loot.

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What does it mean to "place them correctly post loot"?

Just sort with LOOT only, don't manually reorder afterwards. Does the game start properly?

[popanE]

I've gone through LOOT and made the required corrections.  It does keep telling me a few mods require X patch which I 100% have installed, 
I've checked for correct versions. Almost all the mods I'm wanting to use I have used in smaller builds successfuly. The other forums/support sites I've been to say LOOT is good but can get things wrong and reading mod authors descriptions etc often say mod must be placed in X spot in LO to work.  I've spent 100's and 100's of hours learning thing's but still need bit of pro help from time to time.

The game does not start. After clicking run mo2 brings up normal dialog box (mo2 is locked) then after few seconds just goes back to normal mo2 window. I've no warnings in mo2 other then what skse puts in overwrite (4 ini's). Is there anything I can prove to help diagnose the problem? Perhaps I need to redo merges using something else than zedit?

z929669 I didn't intentionally post in 2 spots to get an answer, I couldn't find way to delete first post. I'm sure you have to filter out many that do. I'll do better at playing by rules and etiquette and be supporter with donations which I did as I don't expect a free handout. If I make a mistake, please point me to the right thing as I'm keen to be a valuable contributor. 

[Mousetick]

  On 11/25/2023 at 9:06 PM, popanE said:

It does keep telling me a few mods require X patch which I 100% have installed, I've checked for correct versions.

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If you merged those patches, LOOT doesn't "see" them since they are now parts of merged plugins with a different name. If you're 100% sure you have them but they are merged, you can ignore the related warnings. Otherwise, if they're not merged, you may want to triple-check the correct ones are installed.

But patches are likely not the real problem that could cause the game to crash at startup.

  On 11/25/2023 at 9:06 PM, popanE said:

The other forums/support sites I've been to say LOOT is good but can get things wrong and reading mod authors descriptions etc often say mod must be placed in X spot in LO to work.

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Yes that may be right in order to get the intended results in-game, or to avoid patching. But that is irrelevant at this point, as the game can't even boot up.

For the game to start at all, it doesn't matter if mod A is placed before or after mod B. What matters, assuming the mods are valid and not corrupt, is that all requirements and dependencies must be satisfied (e.g. if plugin B requires plugin A as a master, plugin A must be present) and sorted in the correct order (i.e. if plugin B requires plugin A as a master, plugin A must be sorted before plugin B). MO2 checks that plugin dependencies are satisfied and puts up warnings if that's not the case. LOOT ensures plugin dependencies are correctly sorted.

So at this point it's better to simply sort with LOOT and not to sort manually. Do not make unnecessary changes that don't directly help for troubleshooting.

  On 11/25/2023 at 9:06 PM, popanE said:

After clicking run mo2 brings up normal dialog box (mo2 is locked) then after few seconds just goes back to normal mo2 window.

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Does the Skyrim icon show up at all on the Windows task bar? Does the game window (initially empty/black) open?

  On 11/25/2023 at 9:06 PM, popanE said:

Is there anything I can prove to help diagnose the problem?

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Disable all plugins except the CC modules and unofficial patches on MO2's right side. Launch the game.

  On 11/25/2023 at 9:06 PM, popanE said:

Almost all the mods I'm wanting to use I have used in smaller builds successfuly.

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The more mods you add to the LO, the more chances that something goes wrong. The risk goes up pretty much exponentially with each mod you add.

Did you put together this huge LO all by yourself or did you use an existing list used by other players? Are you only testing the build now at the very end, or did you build incrementally, testing from time to time before adding more stuff on top?

[Greg]

If you used zedit to merge plugins and created a bashed patch on top of that, I'd run SSEdit, click OK to load all plugins and watch for any errors as it loads the plugins. Be patient and wait until SSEdit builds all references. If you don't see any errors after all plugins are loaded and references are built, right click the merged plugin(s) and check for errors. If these all look good, right click the bashed patch and check for errors. This is more or less just a quick way to rule out any potentially bad plugins that may be causing issues.

Mousetick is also spot on in saying that adding 1,500 mods at once and expecting everything to work never goes according to plan. It is significantly easier to start small and add a few mods at a time with good testing in between to resolve any issues before adding more mods into the mix.

[popanE]

Ok thanks for the info.  I made the list myself after several months of exploring wabberjack lists and other collections.  I've made smaller lists before and all went ok.  This is my first crack at a big build. I have the time to experiment and test (I'm retired) so think I'll heed the advice and wind back and add things few at a time. I've got an ok pc with a ton of storage so I can make backups as I go no problems, and things don't take long to process. I'm getting new CPU and GPU in February so will use this time to nail down things. 

Mousetick, I don't get to the black screen, just launch then back to mo2 window after about 5 seconds.  I'm very determined to learn how to do such a big list correctly.  I'm only testing at the end as most of the mods I've used before and thought I try my hand and see what happens.

Appreciate the help guys.

[z929669]

Crash at startup is more likely due to using an incorrect version of a runtime mod (e.g., SKSE-dependent mods and mods that use DLLs), or a faulty plugin or even a faulty mesh.

It's almost certainly not your LO causing this issue but rather a specific plugin or incompatibility.

As Mouse mentioned, disable all mods in MO except for SKSE64 and SSE Engine fixes to verify all is kosher with your environment and configuration (INIs). Disable ENB. Then only enable the runtime mods (anything with an SKSE folder or a DLL) and test again. If all is well, use the iterative binary approach:

Enable half of the remaining disabled mods, sort with LOOT (don't do any custom sorting), test <-- if there's a failure here, then disable the half you had enabled, and enable the other half. Repeat by enabling half of the remaining disabled mods, and test again <-- if there's a failure, disable the half you had enabled, and enable the other half. Make notes if it helps you to remember exactly what you did and when you did it. You will most likely find one or two mods that are causing the problem, and it may or may not be plugin related. Even a plugin-loaded config file can screw things up.

LOOT may not always get things exactly how a given person wants, it does it's job correctly and ensures that critical mods are sorted correctly. LOOT almost certainly isn't causing your problem

With more than 500 mods, this process can still be challenging, because many of the mods will have dependencies with other mods in your build. Simplify, test, add a layer, test, etc.

Oh, and use BethINI to rule out game configuration files as the source of your issue.

[Mousetick]

  On 11/26/2023 at 2:13 AM, popanE said:

I'm only testing at the end as most of the mods I've used before and thought I try my hand and see what happens.

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If it had worked on the first try you'd have been extremely lucky. The problem with that approach is that if something doesn't work, which is bound to happen, you inevitably need to backtrack. So you don't really save time. Since you never tested anything at any point till the very end, we have no idea what that "something" might be. It could be anything: stuff you installed at the beginning, or stuff you added very late, like the merged patches.

In this case, you can try to go back to square one and see if the game can even launch without any mods. Are you using DLLs installed directly in the game folder? They could crash the game at startup.

You need to find one good working configuration to rely and build upon, as barebones as it might be. You don't need to backup, uninstall and re-install anything. You can just disable and enable stuff in the mod manager. Additionally you can use MO2's built-in features to backup or restore left-side or right-side load orders: they take simple snapshots of their sort order and enable/disable state, they don't save the actual mod files.

Also heed Greg's advice above about verifying merged and/or bashes patches in xEdit.

[popanE]

Thanks guys that's very helpful.  Might take me a few months but I'll get there.

[z929669]

I edited my previous in case it isn't intuitive to test chunks of mods independently to quickly arrive at the solution in a matter of a few hours or even minutes (rather than consuming tens or hundreds of hours testing chunks with overlap or haphazardly stabbing in the dark).

[popanE]

Cheers, I learn more and more after each attempt. I understand what you're saying. 

[Mousetick]

I'd wanted to point a small but important detail and then I forgot, so here it is better late than never:

  On 11/25/2023 at 9:06 PM, popanE said:

I've no warnings in mo2 other then what skse puts in overwrite (4 ini's).

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Do not let folders and files hanging in MO2's overwrite folder forever. Move them out of there and into their own mod folder* ASAP. The overwrite folder should always be kept empty.

The reason for promptly sweeping the overwrite folder is so that MO2's important warnings are not missed. Having things in Overwrite is typically benign. A master plugin being missing or a plugin being in the wrong format are serious issues. MO2 treats them on an equal level by hiding them behind the same warning icon.

If you leave stuff in the overwrite folder indefinitely, MO2's warning icon will always be highlighted, and you won't know when new, potentially serious, warnings pop up. MO2's warning icon should normally always be OFF (grayed out) so that you can easily notice when it turns ON.

The overwrite warning pitfall can be avoided once and for all by redirecting the SKSE launcher output to a dedicated mod folder*: Tools > Executables > SKSE > Create files in mod instead of overwrite > Pick an existing mod* you created specifically to receive folders and files created while running the game.

* Name the mod as you wish, e.g. "SKSE Output". Sort the mod at the bottom of the list on MO2's left side, above Overwrite.

[popanE]

Thanks for that. I've made progress with the list. Done fair bit of editing regarding unresolved formid's.  I've learned that some patches can lead to going round in circles when editing as in patch x does same as patch y which you can't have for obvious reasons and not having redundant mods activated even though what I have read and watched in tuts says shouldn't matter just gets bit messy to have them.  I'm at the point where game launches get the normal Bethesda screen progresses to next screen with a dragon and says the enb thing up the top then crashes to desktop. So more work to be done.  I'll let you know how I go.