Skyrim Revisited Pre-Release Feedback

[JudgmentJay]

PCG4m3r, I saw you mention the resizing of normals in the DDSOpt thread and decided to give it a try. I tested it on my mountain textures. I'm using a 4096 resolution texture with a 2048 normal. I resized the 2048 normal to 1024 and there was absolutely 0 difference in quality in-game. Do you try to keep your normals at 1/2 the texture resolution size or do you just do a 50% reduction across the board? Have you ever noticed any image quality loss? Any problems with doing this in general? It really seems like a great way to free up a significant amount of VRAM.

[PCG4m3r]

 

 

Oh snap! I got CTDs while piking armors! Twice!

First time a vampire armor, next a Thalmor one. What the heck it may be, USKP really?

I haven't actually TRIED the new one in game yet... but I know for sure that doesn't happen with the old version and SR.

 

To all: I've updated everything EXCEPT the USKP now. Will see how far I get but I should get done before the evening is out.

 

Updating for the new USKP slowly in increments, please be patient. Mod patches updated so far (will update as finished):

Clanking Armor

Guard Dialogue Overhaul (Weapons and Armor section changes only)

Better Skill and Quest Book Names (simply update)

More Interactive Items

Skyrim Coin Replacer

SkyTEST

Distant Detail Hearthfire Edition

Consistent Older People

Pelagius Wing - Unlit Candles

Ars Metallica (No changes - waiting for Arthmoor to fix - requires script merge. Not a show stopper though.)

Non-Essential Killable Children

Bring Out Your Dead

 

UPDATES COMPLETED.

Hey Neovalen,

 

Just wondering exactly what this entails?  Does this mean after updating the USKP, that I should delete and reinstall these mods with instructions that have been updated in the Wiki?  It's hard for me to tell if any changes have occurred there.

 

Thanks for all your work and for bringing me back to Skyrim!  I should have my GTX 680 w/ 4Gb VRAM incoming soon, so I'm going to blow out these hi-rez textures.

Basically for any updated mod simply open in TES5Edit and basically recheck/add changes at least for this go round. The safest thing is to reinstall said mod and re-edit but really not required this time. USKP changes are obviously the most difficult due to the mass number of changes each go round.

@MorningLightMountain:

 

In case this helps you or anyone else, here is what I have been doing to find the exact changes Neovalen has been making. Obviously he can't put everything in the changelog, so this is a good method to find the specific changes and has worked pretty well (I'm pretty anal -- or it's just OCD)! :)

 

1. Get Notepad++ if you don't have it (highly recommended/versatile text editor): 

      https://notepad-plus-plus.org/

 

2. After installing, open Notepad++ and go to:

              - Plugin

                     |_ Plugin Manager

                                     |_ Show Plugin Manager

 

3. Find the "Compare" plugin and install it

4. I also recommend installing the TextFX Tools plugin while you're at it (named something like that)

5. Then in Neo's Guide page select all the text -- CTRL A works but also selects Wiki menu stuff (don't need that) -- this is what I do:

               - Start by clicking/dragging a selection before the "S" in "Skyrim Revisited" title and drag down a line or so

               - Let go of mouse button

               - Scroll to the very bottom - DON'T CLICK ANY TEXT YET

               - Then hold SHIFT and click at the very end of the last line "....versions and confirmed in game."

 

6. Copy the text (CTRL C)

7. Open Notepad++ and paste all the text

8. Save as a new file somewhere and KEEP IT!

9. Next time Neo makes changes, repeat steps 5-8 but be sure to save as a different file and don't overwrite the previous one

10. Then open both text files in Notepad++ at the same time

11. Run the compare (it's very fast!) by using the shortcut ALT D

12. Now you can scroll down and see each every change in the new text file compared to the old one

 

TIPS:

• You can see what the highlighted colors represent and even change them to personal taste by going to >>Plugin >>Compare >>Option settings
• Also you can undo the Compare quickly by pressing CTRL ALT D

Hope that helps someone! :)

 

 

[PCG4m3r]

PCG4m3r' date=' I saw you mention the resizing of normals in the DDSOpt thread and decided to give it a try. I tested it on my mountain textures. I'm using a 4096 resolution texture with a 2048 normal. I resized the 2048 normal to 1024 and there was absolutely 0 difference in quality in-game. Do you try to keep your normals at 1/2 the texture resolution size or do you just do a 50% reduction across the board? Have you ever noticed any image quality loss? Any problems with doing this in general? It really seems like a great way to free up a significant amount of VRAM.[/quote']

Yes, for all normals (*_n.dds and *_msn.dds) I recently have been doing a 50% reduction across the board. Before I would just do this with the Vanilla/HRDLC and TPC mod textures, to affect the bigger landscape mods (SRO, HD2K, Flora Overhaul, etc.). I decided to be brave and do this for every mod in Neo's guide to see what the results were.

 

I know that mod authors like Starac (SRO) had mentioned his textures should not be compressed and I usually just reduce SRO's normals, but don't touch the textures. This time I decided to do it with everything and take note of the "fallout".

 

So far I haven't noticed any image quality loss or if there is any it's not really obvious in game...yet! Although I mistakenly compressed all *_msn.dds files recently and found most didn't turn out too well, so I restored those normals for now. I will eventually reduce those by 50% too.

 

At some point I will do some comparison screenshots to see if reduced normals change the way things actually look (may be the only way to tell). I made a copy of my full MO folder before DDSopt-ing, so I have one copy with all DDSopt-imized files in it and another with only vanilla/HRDLC optimized. This way it will be easy for me to launch SR from either folder to get screenshots of DDSopt vs. non-DDSopt files.

 

My *very limited* understanding why normal map reduction works, aside from the obvious size of the files (less to load in VRAM) is that normal map colors tell the game engine how to represent the related *.dds textures in 3D space (x, y, z). So by reducing the size of the files without compressing, the color information is still there and unmodified from the original and as the normals are wrapped around the meshes in-game, the color information is still in the proper place and the larger sized textures appear as they're supposed to in 3D. In theory, it seems like a smaller normal (1024K) behind a larger texture (2048K) would be more stretched around the mesh and make it look blurry, but since the *.dds texture is still higher res it doesn't appear blurred from what I can tell. I could be way off about this, but this is how I currently understand it. :)

 

I'm not sure if 50% reduction is still ok for the really small normals (i.e. soulgems) or if it will cause loss of info since those are so small already. I will try to figure that out and report here if so.

 

Sorry for the multiple walls of text today! I'm guess I'm doing a brain-dump on you all. LOL :o_O:

 

EDIT: I just did a few test with screenshots with full SR mods, focusing on AOF Mountain textures to compare 50% reduced Normal Maps vs. unoptimized. Screenshots are in the URL below and are named as 1a, 1b, and 1c (hover your mouse over the images to see names -- should appear 1a-1c left to right). 

 

I uploaded the full size images (2048x1280) and you can see the results better if you open each in a separate tab.

 

1a. NO DDSopt-imization (2048K Textures, 2048K Normal Map)

1b. 2048K Tex optimized, 50% Reduced NM - no compression (2048 to 1024)

1c. 50% Reduced Tex - no compression (2048 to 1024), 50% Reduced NM - no compression (2048 to 1024)

 

https://imgur.com/a/OKapQ#0

 

There's a noticeable difference when comparing the images, but it's not too bad (IMO). The unoptimized (1a) is the sharpest looking compared to the other two. The full size texture + 50% reduced NM (1b) is slightly more blurry, but it is still sharper than the last image where both texture and NM were reduced by 50% (1c).

 

In game though I really don't think the slight blur of Full Tex + 50% NM is that noticeable and the trade-off is probably worth it, considering less VRAM is used and performance is better. 

[Kelmych]

It would be helpful if you would post these issues on the DDSopt and Texture Overhauls thread in Guides. Ethatron follows this thread and will often check out the problems and might respond directly to the issue. He always looks at the issue and tries to have it solved in the next release, or he will explain if he can't fix it why this can't be done (e.g., poorly created texture with some specific problems that he can't fix). Ethatron released a new update to DDSopt today and has been responding to questions and issues in the thread on the problem textures we have been discussing for the past few weeks.

 

He has previously mentioned problems with body-related textures, but I don't remember him discussing problems with the model space normal maps for these.

[PCG4m3r]

It would be helpful if you would post these issues on the DDSopt and Texture Overhauls thread in Guides. Ethatron follows this thread and will often check out the problems and might respond directly to the issue. He always looks at the issue and tries to have it solved in the next release, or he will explain if he can't fix it why this can't be done (e.g., poorly created texture with some specific problems that he can't fix). Ethatron released a new update to DDSopt today and has been responding to questions and issues in the thread on the problem textures we have been discussing for the past few weeks.

 

He has previously mentioned problems with body-related textures, but I don't remember him discussing problems with the model space normal maps for these.

Thanks Kelmych. I was definitely going to post something over there, hoping Ethatron can either fix or tell us why the msn files look bad in some cases, as you mentioned.

[Satyre]

I've already noticed a fairly significant improvement in my FPS/VRAM usage in-game after doing this and I'm using 2048K textures for most mods (4096K for caves with "Snow and Rocks") on a GTX 580 1.5GB RAM with 2048x1280 resolution. Outdoor areas that were previously choppy due to lag and maxed out VRAM now seem smoother and my FPS has stayed at ~55 ...WITH uGrids=7 configured! And I'm not using ATTK, HiAlgo Boost, or anything like that yet.

@PCG4m3r - Great work!

 

But holy freakin' flyin' buttmonkeys Batman! In comparison, running all of the Sky Rev mods at 1024 on a GTX 680 2GB at 1920 x 1080 with ugrids=5 rapidly eats all of my VRAM and destabilises the game even though physical RAM never exceeds 2.5 GB. ATTK has helped, and restricting the framerate to 35 fps has also smoothed things out considerably.

 

I can only run 2 of the 3 big texture packs at 1024 (HD2K, SRO and Serious HD) if I want any degree of stability.

 

Something tells me I'm still overlooking something.

 

However, I might try out your approach with DDSopt and see what happens.

 

...Or I could just wait two weeks until my GTX 680 4GB arrives and spend my time more productively taking care of my tax returns and renovations. (Yes, I intentionally chose a GTX 680 rather than a Radeon 7970, but that's a discussion for another thread).

 

On a side note, I may even make my own TPC-style mod-combo package combining the basic tweaks and textures that I always use with the goal of simplifying the entire mod structure.

[MorningLightMountain]

 

 

 

Oh snap! I got CTDs while piking armors! Twice!

First time a vampire armor, next a Thalmor one. What the heck it may be, USKP really?

I haven't actually TRIED the new one in game yet... but I know for sure that doesn't happen with the old version and SR.

 

To all: I've updated everything EXCEPT the USKP now. Will see how far I get but I should get done before the evening is out.

 

Updating for the new USKP slowly in increments, please be patient. Mod patches updated so far (will update as finished):

Clanking Armor

Guard Dialogue Overhaul (Weapons and Armor section changes only)

Better Skill and Quest Book Names (simply update)

More Interactive Items

Skyrim Coin Replacer

SkyTEST

Distant Detail Hearthfire Edition

Consistent Older People

Pelagius Wing - Unlit Candles

Ars Metallica (No changes - waiting for Arthmoor to fix - requires script merge. Not a show stopper though.)

Non-Essential Killable Children

Bring Out Your Dead

 

UPDATES COMPLETED.

Hey Neovalen,

 

Just wondering exactly what this entails?  Does this mean after updating the USKP, that I should delete and reinstall these mods with instructions that have been updated in the Wiki?  It's hard for me to tell if any changes have occurred there.

 

Thanks for all your work and for bringing me back to Skyrim!  I should have my GTX 680 w/ 4Gb VRAM incoming soon, so I'm going to blow out these hi-rez textures.

Basically for any updated mod simply open in TES5Edit and basically recheck/add changes at least for this go round. The safest thing is to reinstall said mod and re-edit but really not required this time. USKP changes are obviously the most difficult due to the mass number of changes each go round.

@MorningLightMountain:

 

In case this helps you or anyone else, here is what I have been doing to find the exact changes Neovalen has been making. Obviously he can't put everything in the changelog, so this is a good method to find the specific changes and has worked pretty well (I'm pretty anal -- or it's just OCD)! :)

 

1. Get Notepad++ if you don't have it (highly recommended/versatile text editor): 

      https://notepad-plus-plus.org/

 

2. After installing, open Notepad++ and go to:

              - Plugin

                     |_ Plugin Manager

                                     |_ Show Plugin Manager

 

3. Find the "Compare" plugin and install it

4. I also recommend installing the TextFX Tools plugin while you're at it (named something like that)

5. Then in Neo's Guide page select all the text -- CTRL A works but also selects Wiki menu stuff (don't need that) -- this is what I do:

               - Start by clicking/dragging a selection before the "S" in "Skyrim Revisited" title and drag down a line or so

               - Let go of mouse button

               - Scroll to the very bottom - DON'T CLICK ANY TEXT YET

               - Then hold SHIFT and click at the very end of the last line "....versions and confirmed in game."

 

6. Copy the text (CTRL C)

7. Open Notepad++ and paste all the text

8. Save as a new file somewhere and KEEP IT!

9. Next time Neo makes changes, repeat steps 5-8 but be sure to save as a different file and don't overwrite the previous one

10. Then open both text files in Notepad++ at the same time

11. Run the compare (it's very fast!) by using the shortcut ALT D

12. Now you can scroll down and see each every change in the new text file compared to the old one

 

TIPS:

• You can see what the highlighted colors represent and even change them to personal taste by going to >>Plugin >>Compare >>Option settings
• Also you can undo the Compare quickly by pressing CTRL ALT D

Hope that helps someone! :)

 

 

Thats a great idea actually. I already use it for work anyways to compare configuration files for telco gear....

[MontyMM]

I think PCG4m3r's Notepad ++ procedure should be added to the wiki, somewhere. It applies to ini files, ENB configs, scripts - all the stuff we deal with.

[MorningLightMountain]

I think PCG4m3r's Notepad ++ procedure should be added to the wiki' date=' somewhere. It applies to ini files, ENB configs, scripts - all the stuff we deal with.[/quote']

Agreed.  I can't believe I never put 2 and 2 together and used it for modding.  My excellent work/play compartmentalization at work lol

[thalastwon]

Does anyone have thier set up with with ENB and stability? Mine is really unstable with ENB. Take ENB out though, and no CTDs after 3 hours of playing. SweetFX and SMAA work fine though. I was really enjoying Skyrealism's Vibrant settings.

 

I second PCG4m3r's Notepad instructions being added to the wiki, btw.

[Neovalen]

Sorry to everyone for the lack of updates .. RL has decided to intervene. Will try to work on it some soon.

[z929669]

I think PCG4m3r's Notepad ++ procedure should be added to the wiki' date=' somewhere. It applies to ini files, ENB configs, scripts - all the stuff we deal with.[/quote']

Why not use the built-in diff of the Wiki itself? It tracks all changes, so all one needs to do is pick two different dates ...

 

EDIT: i.e., store this information of the wiki.

 

EDIT2: e.g., create under User page or collaboratively maintain a version out int the Main namespace.

[Satyre]

I can't figure out why apachii sky hair causes the game to hang.

 

Using alternative start:

1. - Changing race to female causes the game to CTD.

2. Using the "start as female" mod solves this problem. However the game hangs when I attempt to leave Breezehome after using the bed.

 

Hmmm.

[Neovalen]

Honestly don't know... Apachii SkyHair has all kinds of issues and I have no idea why. Thats why it was removed.

[Satyre]

Ahh. Damn I only want 1 hairstyle lol.