SRLE Extended String Count Testing

[linar9415]

Hello everyone!

 

It might have been posted here but anyway i think this issue affects all of us. Recently i finished my build that includes SRLE+SRLE Extended + few of REGs mods. Before starting a playthrough i always test game for CTDs, saves and so on. And basically for some reason my saves always become corrupt. I tried to start a new game and after running for few hours it happened again. I tried to load save from test chambers by typing coc QASmoke in console but that didnt help as well. And of course as you might have guessed the reason is amount of mods. And to be more precisely it is the amount of strings that they add to your savegame.

There is a thread of loverslab forums in which OP describes the problem (https://www.loverslab.com/topic/56588-corrupted-saves/page-1).

 

Brief summary:

"This issue(save corruption) has been determined by vyper00 to be caused by an overflow of the strings table in the savefile. The strCount field which indicates how many string are in the table is 16 bits (unsigned), so the maximum value is 65,535. When the numbers of strings exceeds 65535, the game continues to run without issue except for numerous errors in the Papyrus logs and savegames that are unreadable . Even Script Scalpel and SaveTool can't load them, they are COMPLETELY unrecoverable."

 

Thats mean that if we exceed the limit 65535 we wouldnt be able to load saves no matter what we do with them. The vanilla game + DLCs and USLEEP patch require 28,000 strings. Add to this number amount of string that you getting from mods and simply playing the game and you might bump into the limit. This is what exactly happened with my game. 

 

From this point on i think its important to measure this value of string in saves. You can do it with the TESV ESS tool (https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/27119/). It can show you how many strings are in a working savegame; look in global data table 3, in the papyrus subsection(just click  on it). The first row is strings. BUT i advice to do a copy of your saves before using this tool! 

Until this bug is fixed ( if its ever going to be fixed) we can base our mod packs by making sure that the limit wont be exceeded after some play time (100-200hours)

For example my saves consisted of 64581(!) strings when got out of Alternate start room. No wonder it got corrupted so soon. Whats more interesting is the fact that mods that contribute the most to the value of string is the ones that have huge MCM menu and a lot of scipts (like big quest mods and so on). The mods like footprints, wet and cold and so on dont do much harm.

 

Just as example here are some of user observations:

 

Interesting NPCs (3400)

Legacy of the Dragonborn (4000)

Campfire and Frostfall (1000)

1200 - Frostfall & Campfire

2700 - Ultimate Deadly Encounters (Sands of Time)

    28 - Revenge of the Enemies

      0 - Inconsequential NPCs

  560 - Skyrim Immersive Creatures

  790 - iNeed

    00 - OBIS

    41 - Moonpath to Elswyr

1300 - Helgen Reborn

4000 - S.T.E.P. Extended

  670 - Falskaar

  930 - Holidays

 

Based on some feedback we might want to get rid of mods that dont add much to experience like Holidays, Interesting NPCs and so on.

Edited March 26, 2016 by linar9415

[nappilydeestruction]

I read that thread a week ago, definitely some good information.

[Darth_mathias]

 

Hello everyone!

 

It might have been posted here but anyway i think this issue affects all of us. Recently i finished my build that includes SRLE+SRLE Extended + few of REGs mods. Before starting a playthrough i always test game for CTDs, saves and so on. And basically for some reason my saves always become corrupt. I tried to start a new game and after running for few hours it happened again. I tried to load save from test chambers by typing coc QASmoke in console but that didnt help as well. And of course as you might have guessed the reason is amount of mods. And to be more precisely it is the amount of strings that they add to your savegame.

There is a thread of loverslab forums in which OP describes the problem (https://www.loverslab.com/topic/56588-corrupted-saves/page-1).

 

Brief summary:

"This issue(save corruption) has been determined by vyper00 to be caused by an overflow of the strings table in the savefile. The strCount field which indicates how many string are in the table is 16 bits (unsigned), so the maximum value is 65,535. When the numbers of strings exceeds 65535, the game continues to run without issue except for numerous errors in the Papyrus logs and savegames that are unreadable . Even Script Scalpel and SaveTool can't load them, they are COMPLETELY unrecoverable."

 

Thats mean that if we exceed the limit 65535 we wouldnt be able to load saves no matter what we do with them. The vanilla game + DLCs and USLEEP patch require 28,000 strings. Add to this number amount of string that you getting from mods and simply playing the game and you might bump into the limit. This is what exactly happened with my game. 

 

From this point on i think its important to measure this value of string in saves. You can do it with the TESV ESS tool (https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/27119/). It can show you how many strings are in a working savegame; look in global data table 3, in the papyrus subsection(just click  on it). The first row is strings. BUT i advice to do a copy of your saves before using this tool! 

Until this bug is fixed ( if its ever going to be fixed) we can base our mod packs by making sure that the limit wont be exceeded after some play time (100-200hours)

For example my saves consisted of 64581(!) strings when got out of Alternate start room. No wonder it got corrupted so soon. Whats more interesting is the fact that mods that contribute the most to the value of string is the ones that have huge MCM menu and a lot of scipts (like big quest mods and so on). The mods like footprints, wet and cold and so on dont do much harm.

 

Just as example here are some of user observations:

 

Interesting NPCs (3400)

Legacy of the Dragonborn (4000)

Campfire and Frostfall (1000)

1200 - Frostfall & Campfire

2700 - Ultimate Deadly Encounters (Sands of Time)

    28 - Revenge of the Enemies

      0 - Inconsequential NPCs

  560 - Skyrim Immersive Creatures

  790 - iNeed

    00 - OBIS

    41 - Moonpath to Elswyr

1300 - Helgen Reborn

4000 - S.T.E.P. Extended

  670 - Falskaar

  930 - Holidays

 

Based on some feedback we might want to get rid of mods that dont add much to experience like Holidays, Interesting NPCs and so on.

 

interesting stuff here I have downloaded the Savegame script scalpel tool and had a quick look at the string count for a new SRLE Extended save just after the ASAL Cell and it was 54,583.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Darth_mathias

[linar9415]

In Alternate Start room after initializing all the mods number of strings = 58097. When i got out of the cell and run from Helgen to Whiterun the number of strings rose drastically = 64599, maybe i got some bad mod, who knows)). After this i stole horce called Midnight and rode to Windhelm (not fasttravel). At that point my save got corrupted. I strongly advice everyone to compare how much value of strings have risen from the start to better understand how much we will need in reserve for a long playthrough. The SKSE team, ENB dev. Boris and a few modders have been informed about this issue. I hope they working on a solution. Sheson updated his scripts for DynDolod, you can find them in the original thread on 5th page(https://www.loverslab...ed-saves/page-1). Maybe its worth adding them to the guide.

[rhodsey]

In Alternate Start room after initializing all the mods number of strings = 58097. When i got out of the cell and run from Helgen to Whiterun the number of strings rose drastically = 64599, maybe i got some bad mod, who knows)). After this i stole horce called Midnight and rode to Windhelm (not fasttravel). At that point my save got corrupted. I strongly advice everyone to compare how much value of strings have risen from the start to better understand how much we will need in reserve for a long playthrough. The SKSE team, ENB dev. Boris and a few modders have been informed about this issue. I hope they working on a solution. Sheson updated his scripts for DynDolod, you can find them in the original thread on 5th page(https://www.loverslab...ed-saves/page-1). Maybe its worth adding them to the guide.

This is really interesting and worrying.  It kinda explains a lot for me as this is the problem I ran into the last wo times I tried to install either Skyrim Explorers guide or SRLE Extended on top  on SRLE.  I would play the game and run fine (if a lil low framerate - because I like things pretty) until around killing the first dragon level 5 then it would always seem that I could keep playing forever but, if I tried to leave and load a save the save would crash out or ILS.  IF i loaded a slightly earlier one I could load and play past the point I stopped last time but again no save would work.

 

I figured it was because Explorers wasn't up to date (it was a few months after work stopped on it) or because this guide was pretty script heavy before all Darths work to optimise it.  But the above would make sense.

 

I've downloaded Sheson's beta script as mentioned as he says they save a few thousand strings and will run them at the end of finishing my install and see.

[Darth_mathias]

so after install Shenon updated script my string count didn't change much went from 54,583 to 54,581 do however bear in mind that this a relatively fresh save but I have travelled from Whiterun to Darkwater crossing afters starting out with the Companions.

 

I have also not Rerun Dyndolod yet that is my next step.

 

So just updated DynDolod and still no change in String count. If you find your have issues after the first dragon fight then I would suggested removing Interesting NPC as this seems to have a big impact on this (I may even consider dropping that mod all together from the guide but as of yet my final descion has not been made); more sugestions from you guys on if i should drop Interest NPC's would be good.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Darth_mathias

[darkside]

Interesting NPC adds so much to the game in my opinion. There are several great followers and quests in this mod.

 

Side note, I read on reddit that Immersive Citizens use Quest Alias to inject AI to the NPCs and never release this resource back per Arthmoor here. I wonder if it adds significant string count as well???

Edited March 26, 2016 by darkside

[sm0kem]

Personally, i've already dropped 3DNPC from my list - there is more than enough followers in game and quests are not that great (in my opinion)

[linar9415]

Here is another thread on nexus forums Nexus forums (https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3924850-corrupt-saves-strcount-0xffff-ctd-on-load/). It looks like the only way to identify mods that add a lot of string values is to test them or stick to general rules(mods with big MCM menu, mods with a lot of scripts, even the simple ones like in Interesting NPCs and mods that add animation). Also thats mean that adding even something like AH hotkeys can have a huge impact. All we can do right now is be cautious while choosing mods and rise awareness of this issue. Maybe it will get fixed by someone from mod developers or SKSE team.

[sm0kem]

This is actually a very common issue with older game engines, Stalker had the same limitations - each object in game gets a unique ID and number of IDs available is 65,535 since its defined in code as uint16. Even with access to source code it is not an easy change

[Zegorzalek]

Does a list of mods and their string count exist anwhere? or is it just player testing recently? If a list exists, might help in the screening for inclusion/exclusion process.

 

Interestingly enough, Holidays was on my "consider to drop in case of esp cap" list...that it is a high script item.... hmmmm. I had already removed Frostfall, INeed and 3dNPC from my load order as they don't fit my playstyle.

 

Will be interesting to hear more about this as I am setting up for a looong playthrough with Legacy of the Dragonborne.

 

@ Whetstone, thanks for the input!

Edited March 26, 2016 by Zegorzalek

[linar9415]

You can find a list of mods that were tested by users here in original post (https://www.loverslab...ed-saves/page-1).

I think it would be easier to test value of strings by yourself.

As i said "You can do it with the TESV ESS tool (https://www.nexusmods...rim/mods/27119/). It can show you how many strings are in a working savegame; look in global data table 3, in the papyrus subsection(just click  on it). The first row is strings."

A advice you to make save in starting room and after some play time (2 to 3 hours). Then compare the increase of string value. One should keep on mind that the this value will rise as you play the game. Write you result here afterwards.

I thought about adding Legacy of the Dragonborne as a replacement for all of heavy quest mods from REGs. Its looks like a really interesting mod and it probably will require some conflict resolution with SRLE Ext.

[cstarkey42]

Thanks for the info, linar9415, those were some interesting reads.  

 

What I like about Interesting NPCs is that the npcs are much more natural to the world.  Not only do many have elaborate backstories, usually with a good quest involved, but you can dismiss them and find them later in the game, living life in a much more dynamic fashion.  A lot of followers, by contrast, are good to have by your side in a fight but don't offer much beyond that besides the occasional interesting/funny line of dialoge (I finally tried Sofia recently and thought she was great.  A couple days later and every tacky, "naughty" comment she made just became annoying.)  I think limiting the followers you have in game is a good place to start (Arissa and Sofia add about 700 together.  Really, all this does is reinforce the idea that modding skyrim is about decisions and sacrifices.  I'm terrible at that!)  

 

My last couple games have failed at the same spot, near level 10 and right before fighting the first dragon.  I just cut out a lot of the extra mods in my game that I really didn't need and, after reading those threads, am going to have to cut out some more.  I love AH Hotkeys and I'm not sure how many strings it adds but, with that elaborate mcm, I'm wondering if it isn't time just to rely on a good Categorized Favorites Menu layout instead.

[edynacio]

 

 

I think limiting the followers you have in game is a good place to start (Arissa and Sofia add about 700 together. 

 

I love AH Hotkeys and I'm not sure how many strings it adds but, with that elaborate mcm, I'm wondering if it isn't time just to rely on a good Categorized Favorites Menu layout instead.

Agree 100%

Edited March 26, 2016 by edynacio

[Darth_mathias]

I really don't want to get rid of interesting NPC's since like other have said the are more natural and are almost like the should of been in the game from the start. I am loathed to get rid of Sofia (mostly cos she was one of the first follower I always install) but saficrices might need to made for the greater good (you could also count arrisa. recorder, Mirai and Hoth here). Inigo will not be going he jsut too enjoyable to have around. 

 

I have been seriously thinking about getting rid of holidays as this doesn't really add much to the game other the "immersion" of cause but again sacrifices for the great good. another option is to limit the house mods too cause currently there are 2 fairly script heavy house mods in Extended.

 

whatever happen the strings will be high for SRLE Extended so it cos to decsions on what we want and what we need actaully need to improve the gameplay of SRLE without casuing to much issues late game like save game courrption. I've not tested a SRLE base yet, I actually need to rebuild my base Profile to do this.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Darth_mathias