RustyLH

Yeah, the thing is, I never even started up the game with STEP. I was just about to do that, but I was going to see if I could fix a broken mod, "Fort Heljachen," and add that instead of Lakeview Extended. I want to have just one player home this time, and likely not buy any of the other houses. I want just one that will allow me to display all of my loot (masks, claws, Thane Weapons, etc...), and allows for beds for several followers, and maybe beds for up to 6 children. Gah, I can't stand having to break the little kids' hearts by telling them I cant take them in. haha Oh, and while I do want to display the Thane weapons, I am severely disappointed in how boring they are. You would think that there would be something special about each one, but they are often basic weapons, and some are repeated. I wonder if there is a mod that corrects this. Anyway, back on topic...I was going to try to mod this, but for some reason, the CK was not opening up, so I thought, yeah, I will just delete it and download it again. Next thing I know, my game file is Vanilla. I was able to back it up to an earlier version, with most of STEP still there, but a couple of the files said something about the name being too long, and so I just said heck with it, deleted the entire game file, and started again. What is SRLE? Skyrim R____ Legendary Edition?

Right, that was my point, which is important for immersion, but I see that each person has a different idea of what immersion is, and what is immersion breaking. As I said, for me, the idea of immersion is to imagine myself actually being in that world, being that guy, doing those things. So when a woman is supposed to be, or should be seen as beautiful, then in my opinion, she needs to be beautiful. This means, that she needs to be beautiful to me...not beautiful to a Nord put into a time machine and brought to the present. As for lore friendly...I am not sure what lore friendly really is. I think it is a much grayer area than some think, because after all, while these are "Nords" they are not actually "our Nords." This is really just a group of people who are loosely based on our Nords...and from a medieval time period. But, if we are looking for a realistic feel, I have already covered the fact that there is much that is not realistic, such as no fat people, and no teenagers, and the kids all look the same...like they all have the same parents. In addition to that, we should see a decided difference between people living alone in the country, those living in small villages, and those living in the major cities. The differences should be how clean and nice the clothes are, how nice the hair styles are, and even things such as make-up and jewelry. The same could be said of how friendly the people are. A person living alone is not likely to like people, and thus be less friendly, while people in small villages would be more wary of strangers, but people living in the bigger cities would be more used to dealing with strangers, and thus more open and friendly, though also more likely to be a con artist. I agree. It is maybe a better option for GEMS. Well, I am having to reload everything because somehow, my game file got corrupted. So I am going to redo this. I am going to reload all the mods for the extended patch. I hope my computer can take it. I do want to add ll of the Bijin women, and CBBE. But I think I am going to do the extended patch first this time, where as last time, I was tossing in this and a few other mods before finishing the extended patch. After I have everything I want in the game, I will do the DynDOLOD patch. So I am looking for advice on how to add the mods without messing up the STEP process. I do know that just for insurance, I am going to copy the game file after finishing the STEP before adding the extra mods. So I want to add the Bijin stuff, and do the Bijin All-In-One, and then do a player home or two. This is what I know I would like to add. All things BijinWyrmstoothFalskaarLegend of the Eagle's NestEbonvaleHelgen RebuiltLakeview Extended Also, there was an armor pack that I will load along with the Extended patch because the armor is lore friendly, and the mod that fixes the eye holes on helmets said to load it first if you are going to use it because it patches that mod. So I am wondering what advice you have for adding these, and other mods after STEP. I saw that the guy who made Bijin A-I-O said that if there is a mod that modifies the Bijin women, then they will look bad with Bijin. This is why I want to add this after STEP, and after a saved game, including new character creation and a save, immediately post Helgen. I am open to any suggestions that I can use to add anything to make the game better, and while "close to lore friendly" is OK, I am not necessarily looking for hardcore lore friendly.

OK, so it won't matter that I have some mods not listed, and didn't include some that were listed?

Ah, but if it were her application of the law, she would be Elisif the Just. Fair, when applied to a young lady meant "pretty." And then...mirror mirror on the wall, whose the fairest of them all? Why Elisif of course. Point taken, but I guess I see this as no different than something like HD Smiles, and making the Septums look like they came out of a modern coin press...but that's just me. And let's be honest, the people of Skyrim were one of the most glaring problems, starting with the clone children, identical voices, many characters having the same face, etc... Anything that alters that is good in my opinion. Thus I had RS Children last time. It bothers me that so much time was spent on mods for nipples and panties, and so little effort put into making a few fat people, pregnant women, babies, teenagers, ex-soldiers missing a limb, altering a lot of faces, redoing voices for more variety, etc... Would have made a great mod...could be called, Realistic People of Skyrim. And in that could be some ultra beautiful women...as that has always been real life. Obviously the Smith's wife should not be, but a few of the young 18-28 year old types could have, especially those that you would expect to have an easier life than most. Some of the Bijin NPCs make sense for this, many do not...I grant you that. IMHO, Camilla, Ysolda, Elisif, and Taarie make sense out of the Bijin wives. Sylgja, and Temba Wide Arms do not since they work arduous jobs. Of the War Maidens, I am not familiar with all of the characters and their stories, but I am sure there are some who make no sense being so beautiful, while some do. Lydia, for instance was already one of the more attractive NPCs, and you get the feeling that she wasn't a true warrior...more like a show warrior, thus becoming your house carl...though she does fight well enough as a follower. As to it not being Vanilla enough, I have a hard time swallowing that. As you stated, many things do get changed, and drastically, away from what was Vanilla. But the idea being that it has to be because the Vanilla way is broken/immersion breaking. As I said, the Vanilla people are broken/immersion breaking. Thus if any area needed a severe tune-up it's the people. As I said, having some fat people, teenagers, kids that don't look like clones, etc...would be more immersive. It's something that actually needs FIXED. I hope they do a better job on TES6 in this regard. So if the people were to be fixed, what is realistic. I mean come on...this is a world with Magic and Dragons...Elves and Trolls. Do you honestly think it is unrealistic that women with access to magic, and wealthy women who could afford it, would not have beauty potions? And make-up? That has been around for as long as man has been recording history. A Roman wrote that his wife's face did not sleep with him. It slept in jars on her vanity. In other words, she wore make-up. So no, i don't think it would be immersive for every last woman to be Bijin, and maybe not even all of those who are in the Bijin mods...but I think it is actually more immersive if some are. When has there ever been a world where some women didn't stand out above the others. My gosh, even the Bible spoke of this being the case among the Jews after their exodus from Egypt. It noted that men favored some over others b for their beauty...and this was not thought to be a good thing as looks over character is not a virtue. I am interested to know more about your set up. I never worry about the naked or not because I don't undress them. I also don't put them in bikinis, or lingerie. I kept it at mostly lore friendly armor, though I did put Jenna in the Witcher 3 outfit as I thought it was a good match for Faendal who I had in the Crimson Archer outfit from Immersive Armors. Totally lore friendly? Obviously not, but I looked at it as she was not from Skyrim so it was OK for her outfit to not look like it was from Skyrim.

OK, first, I am at the point where you add Hearthfires Extended, so not many more mods to go. But this process, outside of adding these mods, is not clear to me. I have added a few mods that were on the list, specifically Falskaar, Wyrmstooth, Bijin (everything), and added the grass on steroids type patch on the Skyrim Flora Overhaul page, so that I can save some frames. A few times I also went with the more performance version of a mod when I felt I wouldn't miss the added detail. I have also left out just a few Core mods where I knew I would not need them, and have added most of the extended, non-Core Mods on the 2.2.9.2 page. So once I add the last mod, I am totally confused as to what I am supposed to do. Do I just run things such as Loot, Wrye Bash, DynDOLOD, etc? I keep seeing things about patches, but really don't understand what I should use, or not use. For instance, on the detailed instructions for Hearthfires, it says if you are not using the STEP Patches (now included in the STEP Compilation), also install the Cutting Room Floor patch optional file. OK, I have no idea if I should be using the patches...and if I am going to, do I just use the STEP Compilation? I looked at the size of it and it is huge. Is this compilation meant to be used instead of downloading the mods individually, or do you use it on top of the mods listed in 2.2.9.2?

I noted that they advise starting a new game, but I have a save from right after exiting the cave at Helgen, and it is 100% Vanilla. I am curious if I can use this. Is the main objection to using previous saves due to people using saves well into the game, or maybe having a mod or two baked into the save? I'm just not sure what the difference between this save and a new game would be.

Which makes you wonder about the smiles in HD. I find it far more realistic that a woman could have a flawless face than flawless teeth in such a world. I can also agree that hair styles could use tweaking for a more STEP friendly appeal. The one exception being Elsisf the Fair. I see no reason the Toccata follower version of her should not be the STEP version. If they don't want the Toccata follower, I am sure they could figure out a way to get around that. However, she is a healer/mage, so how battle scarred should she be? Not very in my opinion. I can also understand maybe not including the Warmaidens mod. Either way, I am including the whole set so I will let anyone know if I have any problems. I don't expect any as I had them all in before.

The point is still the same, and still valid. In fact, it is the very reason everyone downloads some sort of people replacer in the first place. The people were horrid looking. It is hard to immerse in the game when the people looked that bad. And it wasn't just the inferior textures, it was the entire look. I've seen far prettier women in other games with similar quality textures. I would totally agree that it is unrealistic to make very last female NPC in the game a Bijin NPC. But it is also just as unrealistic, in my opinion, not to have at least one or two women in each major location that is well above the norm in beauty. That's real life. I can totally understand if a woman would not agree. But as a man, that is real life. There are always women who stand out in a big way. We even at time, define a location by these women. If there is one that catches you eye in a building you visit on occasion, when think of that building, you also think of her. But it takes exceptional beauty to cause that. But you are half right. Beauty is relative. But it is also subjective. More importantly, your perception does alter with your experiences..your environment. Enter the cliche of the young man or woman thinking that their boyfriend/girlfriend is just the greatest thing since sliced bread...until they go off to college and meet people even more beautiful, and or more exciting. It's simply a fact that if we went back in a time machine, we would find the woman to be quite plain, and maybe even hideous. Think about it...it's not unrealistic to find a fair young woman with a face like the one above...but what about those HD Smiles? I don't think they had pretty, straight, gleaming white teeth, and yet this in on the list of STEP mods. Make sense? Not really. Where are the people with the totally wrecked grills? Furthermore, the effect is not drastic when they are left in their normal clothes. Women get pregnant in real life yet all of the women are never pregnant. Some men and women are very fat. None here. When it comes to an argument of realism, there is no valid argument against including these mods. But they should not be CORE, obviously.

At the risk of derailing this...she did seduce not one but two Roman Emperors. OK, well Marcus Antonius was never an actual Caesar, and neither was Julius Caesar. Marcus Antonius ruled alongside his two allies, Marcus Aemilius Lepidus, and Octavian, and after the civil war, Octavian became the first true Caesar...Caesar Augustus. Point being, she was supposed to be quite beautiful. As to the point of all of these paintings of beautiful women. Like it or not, the vast majority of them are plain by today's beauty standards. It was even noted that Marylin Monroe was not up to today's standards. The simple truth is that because of cosmetic surgery, make-up, hair coloring, etc...beauty as an art form has likely reached its pinnacle. I am not sure where it could go from here. Also, I would note that the Elisif pictures don't look any different than the model used as the inspiration. But, you did help make my point. Our beauty standard today IS airbrushed. I have seen many women without their make-up, after first getting to know them with their make-up, and most of them were not nearly as beautiful without it. Now, before you try to go feminazi on me for that, and blame me...I am not the one who put make-up on them. And don't blame men for it by saying that women only do it because that is what men want. I will call BS and correctly point out that the mating game is competitive and women do this due to the competition with other women for the prime males. Hey, many men would love to live in their mom's basement eating Cheetohs and playing video games all day long, but that isn't going to get them a woman. So they go out in the workplace and compete. And whether they like or not, they have to compete in the looks arena also, but men aren't socially allowed to cover and disguise their imperfections with make-up.

Has this been asked? Why not also include the Bonemold Armor fix? I am assuming that it is somehow addressed by another mod. If that is the case, a mention of this in a note, would be good, just in case somebody chooses not to include that mod. I imagine some people do not include all of the core mods, maybe leaving one out for their own personal reasons. I myself almost never use crossbows, preferring the bows, so I was considering not including the Crossbow mod "Dawnguard Crossbow Bolts Visualized." I think it would be awesome to have a set of notes with each mod as to why you leave certain parts out, or why you make the choices that you do. For instance, why the black ebony and not the differently (silver/gold)? If it is a simple style choice, that would be good to note, even if in the forum, and add screen shots of all styles, so if it is just a style preference, each person can make their own choice. As it is, I have no idea if a style is not chosen because there is a problem with it.

Bijin Wives by rxkx22 Bijin Warmaidens by rxkx22 Bijin NPCs by rxkx22 Toccata Follower by rxkx22 and Kasprutz Chaconne Follower by rxkx22 Vivace Follower by rxkx22 I am pretty sure everyone is familiar with these mods, and I am equally sure most see them as not being lore friendly. The main complaint being that they are too beautiful. For some people, this may be true, but for some, like me, having them is lore friendly, and not having them is immersion breaking. I will briefly explain why including them IS lore friendly, and why having unrealistically beautiful women is in fact, realistic. First, we have to understand human nature, and how as a species we are extremely adaptable to our environment, which includes the humans in that environment. For example, imagine a race or group of women that you do not find the least bit attractive. If you had been raised among those women, and that is all you knew, you WOULD find them attractive. In other words, this would be the norm in your mind. And it would be natural for you to find them attractive. I personally find women of average height, and average to less than average weight, to be attractive. However, if all I knew while growing up, had been 6 foot tall women who weighed between 200 and 250 pounds, I would find at least some of them to be extremely attractive. In the early years of the U.S., some authors spoke of how just getting a glimpse of a woman's ankles when she lifted her dress, was highly arousing to men. Why? Because they rarely saw a woman's ankles. Would a glimpse of a woman's ankles do much for you today? Not likely because you see them all the time. In other words, what is beautiful, and what is sexy is subjective, and changes with cultural changes. Where, and when, I went to high school, the girls wore plain hair styles, and little to no makeup. At the time I found many of the girls to be attractive, but now when I look through the yearbook, I am hard pressed to find more than 2 or 3. Beauty standards have changed. Now, the final piece. When in college, we learned a great deal about history, and we often heard about women who were supposedly very very beautiful. Cleopatra for one, but also some Roman and later European women. But when we find representations...even very accurate representations, they do not look beautiful at all. In fact, they look fairly plain. And it is likely they all had some seriously messed up teeth. So here is the point. While you can replicate how a woman might have looked in ancient Nord times, the problem becomes that the women who are supposed to be beautiful, are not beautiful. The question becomes how beautiful should they be and how many should be beautiful. Well, I recently went back to school and I see many many very beautiful women walking around the campus every single day. So I don't think it would be unrealistic to have a couple of dozen very beautiful women in Skyrim. These mods only put a tiny amount of very beautiful women scattered throughout Skyrim. When you enter Solitude, or Whiterun, the two major centers of population in Skyrim, you will come across two or three of these very beautiful women. I see that as very realistic, and thus immersive. Elisif the Fair is supposed to be extremely beautiful, thus "the Fair," added to her name. The Toccata Follower mod as an optional file to give that face to Elisif the Fair, and I did that last time. It is truly a face worthy of the title. If we wanted to be ultra realistic, you would want 20% of the women in game, who are not children, or old, to be very attractive, with half of them being Bijin beautiful. And one advantage to his beauties is that they don't all look the same, unlike some mods that generally have the same looking face. His are modeled after real women with very different looks. This woman, Mélanie Laurent, is the inspiration for the Toccata/Elisif the Fair face, pictured above. So that is my case. Maybe not so brief, but whatever. So it would be nice to see this tested and added as an option for the mods that presently alter these NPCs. By the way, I am doing just that. I am adding these mods. I will add a post later, once I have met these NPC's in the game. Presently, I do not have a great video card, GTX 750, so this will be a great test.

I used this mod and can endorse it. I believe it made gameplay feel more realistic. It had none of the issues you mention, so I think you should give it a try. I am in the process of my first STEP build and I will be adding this one.

When Gopher did his WryeBash tutorial, he did something special with an aMidianborn mod. Was that this mod, and how do you know which mods to do that extra step with?

Yes...click yes, but then, you only need to click the 1024 x 1024, then click OK.

Thanks for the info!!! OK, so if I install it, and then move it to the Optional ESPs, do I still get the benefit of those fixes without it being available for in game character modification on the fly? As I said, I normally don't worry too much about what my own character looks like because I play almost exclusively in 1st person. I'm more worried about what the NPCs look like. Thus, I use Bijin Wives. Actually I am going to use the Bijin All-In-One, that somebody made that combines all three Bijin groups. That and add Favoured Soul for the male bodies, and a fave mod for the rest of the NPCs. Do you have a suggestion for a mod to change all of the NPC's faces? I used RS Children for the kids last time, but I don't see that on the list, and wonder if there is one already on the list for the kids that I haven't noticed yet. I'm through the top 2 sections, moving into the Landscape & Environment section, so I am not sure what is further down the list. I only glanced at it.