Choosing a Guide / Adding Additional Mod Questions

[AddictedxGamer]

Hey, everyone.  It's me again.  I know; you hate me right now.

 

I'm trying to figure out when to install the mods on my list that aren't covered by STEP Extended.

 

This free-to-view spreadsheet contains the entire list.  It is color-coded, and the mods are grouped into the STEP categories.  The STEP mods (green) are in the same category as in the guide.

 

Here is the spreadsheet: Categorized Mod List (be sure to view both pages within the spreadsheet)

 

Based on that, I have some questions.

 

1) Do the non-STEP mods look like they're in the right categories? If not, where should they go?

2) The non-STEP mods at the very bottom; I have no idea which category they go in. Do you?

3) When should I install these non-STEP mods; DURING the STEP Extended installation, or AFTER? I would install them in the order they are listed in the spreadsheet (unless anyone has reason to suggest a different order).

4) Non-STEP mods contained in Packs; can they be installed without the remainder of the Pack, or would I need the entire Pack?

5) STEP Extended and Skyrim Revisited: Legendary Edition cover about the same amount of mods that I want; which should I use as my primary installation? (be sure to view both pages within the spreadsheet)

 

I know you guys hate me right now, but please try to bear with me. This is a trying process, and it's driving me crazy! :confused:

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance provided!

[BUBISHI]

This is a legitimate question and I also tried to find the answer. I sorted a few mods inbetween my STEPextended setup where I thought they woud fit in (weapon & armour into 2.I Clothing & Equippement section for instance)Big overhaul mods like Requiem I sorted after the STEPextended patch.

But I would like to hear a more qualified answer too. 

[AddictedxGamer]

This is a legitimate question and I also tried to find the answer. I sorted a few mods inbetween my STEPextended setup where I thought they woud fit in (weapon & armour into 2.I Clothing & Equippement section for instance)Big overhaul mods like Requiem I sorted after the STEPextended patch.But I would like to hear a more qualified answer too.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's looking for help on this subject! I've never been able to have a stable, problem-free modded game in Skyrim, and I want this time to break that cycle. To do that, I need all the help I can get in sorting and installing everything in the right order.

[Vaportrails]

Please understand that NO we don't hate you.   All of us were at the same place as you at some point in our Skyrim 'careers'. And we understand that when you're looking for help, things can seem daunting/confusing/not as black and white as we'd like them to be.

 

With that said, I'm not sure you're going to find a definitive answer on this. It's kinda up to the ol' trial and error approach. I think the official stance on adding extra mods on top of STEP is go through the entire STEP installation FIRST, play the game a bit to ensure that it is stable, and only then begin installing extra mods you're interested in. It's pretty much a guarantee that with all those extra mods you WILL have issues at some point; some minor, some major.

 

There are so many different variables in Skyrim installations. Things like end-user system configuration and specs, including video card drivers, etc. Custom INI tweaks that different mods might call for. Different versions of mods even. Because of that you will just have to take it as FACT that you WILL have issues. And in order to find and fix the issues you need to ensure that STEP itself is not the issue; because for some it can be (again based on system configuration, user install error, weird glitches, butterfly migrations and so on).

 

This is a time consuming process, but I think you're heading down the right track with your spreadsheet; it will help in keeping stuff organized, etc. At this point in my time with Skyrim I can safely say that I've spent probably DOUBLE the time in just modding the game than in actually playing it. And I'm pretty sure most of the people on this forum could say the same thing. 

 

Some advice on a specific mod: Falskaar. To me, Falskaar is DLC. It is a full-fledged 'unofficial' DLC package. At least that's how I perceive it in my mind. I think the same thing about Wyrmstooth. I think of them as DLC, not mods. So, with that in mind, I always place them and install them just the same way that the Skyrim Revisited guide does it. In relation to STEP I would probably place them after the INTERFACE section and before the CONFLICTING GRAPHICS section. I would also optimize it using DDSopt just like the SRLE guide instructs.

 

Regarding the Bashed Patch, I think you have to rebuild it after every time you add an esp to the mod list. So in your case, I would probably do the Bashed Patch after you've installed all the mods you want. OR, you can go through all of the STEP install, including the Bashed Patch but just keep in mind that you'll need to rebuild it once you've added all your other additional mods.

 

Again, trial and error. We can't give you a definitive answer. For the other mods you have questions about regarding categories, look at where the Nexus places them and just sort of mix and match as best you can. I don't know that there's any RIGHT answer in the exact placement you have them in Mod Organizer. LOOT will take care of ordering the esps as best it can. Getting this game to a perfectly stable unglitched state is nearly impossible especially with so many mods added to it. Take it a 'step' at a time by getting STEP installed first and test it out.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Vaportrails

[AddictedxGamer]

Please understand that NO we don't hate you.   All of us were at the same place as you at some point in our Skyrim 'careers'. And we understand that when you're looking for help, things can seem daunting/confusing/not as black and white as we'd like them to be.  Ain't that the truth?!  I'm glad nobody hates me though.  

 

With that said, I'm not sure you're going to find a definitive answer on this. It's kinda up to the ol' trial and error approach. I think the official stance on adding extra mods on top of STEP is go through the entire STEP installation FIRST, play the game a bit to ensure that it is stable, and only then begin installing extra mods you're interested in. It's pretty much a guarantee that with all those extra mods you WILL have issues at some point; some minor, some major.

 

Install STEP, test the game, and then add additional mods if it's stable.  Got it!

 

There are so many different variables in Skyrim installations. Things like end-user system configuration and specs, including video card drivers, etc. Custom INI tweaks that different mods might call for. Different versions of mods even. Because of that you will just have to take it as FACT that you WILL have issues. And in order to find and fix the issues you need to ensure that STEP itself is not the issue; because for some it can be (again based on system configuration, user install error, weird glitches, butterfly migrations and so on).

 

That makes sense.

 

This is a time consuming process, but I think you're heading down the right track with your spreadsheet; it will help in keeping stuff organized, etc. At this point in my time with Skyrim I can safely say that I've spent probably DOUBLE the time in just modding the game than in actually playing it. And I'm pretty sure most of the people on this forum could say the same thing.

 

I can safely say the same thing.  Every time I've tried to mod and play this game in the past, it's been a complete nightmare.  I never ended up following the proper procedure because I'd get too impatient.  Then I'd get pissed off when I started crashing or having infinite loading screens.  

 

Some advice on a specific mod: Falskaar. To me, Falskaar is DLC. It is a full-fledged 'unofficial' DLC package. At least that's how I perceive it in my mind. I think the same thing about Wyrmstooth. I think of them as DLC, not mods. So, with that in mind, I always place them and install them just the same way that the Skyrim Revisited guide does it. In relation to STEP I would probably place them after the INTERFACE section and before the CONFLICTING GRAPHICS section. I would also optimize it using DDSopt just like the SRLE guide instructs.

 

Yeah, Falskaar and Wyrmstooth are basically DLC packages in my eyes; they're huge!  The amount of content that they add makes them much more than your typical mod.  When I was looking through the STEP Guide and the categories of it, I figured I'd install them right before SkyFalls and SkyMills.  That mod has optionals for both Falskaar and Wyrmstooth.  After Interface and before Conflicting Graphics sounds like a good spot though.  I'll look into optimizing them as well.

 

Regarding the Bashed Patch, I think you have to rebuild it after every time you add an esp to the mod list. So in your case, I would probably do the Bashed Patch after you've installed all the mods you want. OR, you can go through all of the STEP install, including the Bashed Patch but just keep in mind that you'll need to rebuild it once you've added all your other additional mods.

 

Seeing as I'm going to start with a complete installation of STEP, I'll make the Bashed Patch after the installation.  Then I'll rebuild it after I add any additional mods.

 

Again, trial and error. We can't give you a definitive answer. For the other mods you have questions about regarding categories, look at where the Nexus places them and just sort of mix and match as best you can. I don't know that there's any RIGHT answer in the exact placement you have them in Mod Organizer. LOOT will take care of ordering the esps as best it can. Getting this game to a perfectly stable unglitched state is nearly impossible especially with so many mods added to it. Take it a 'step' at a time by getting STEP installed first and test it out.

 

You know, I never though of that; looking at the category a mod is in on the Nexus to try and decide where to put it within the STEP Guide.  #Facepalm.  Thanks for the suggestion!

My replies are in orange.  I've got a couple more questions though.

 

1) Do you think I'd be better off using STEP or SRLE?  SRLE seems to be geared more towards the direction I want to go with my game; realism.  As you can see in the spreadsheet, both STEP and SRLE contain quite a few of the same mods, with SRLE only having a few of the mods that I want, that STEP doesn't.  

 

2) If I install STEP in its entirety, when installing additional mods that are contained in a Pack, should I install the entire Pack, or can I cherry-pick only the mods on my list from it?  

[DoubleYou]

Brief Analysis:

 

Better Dynamic Snow must come before SMIM in Conflicting Graphics. Skyrim HD should come right after SMIM.

 

You're running a lot of heavy script mods in that setup. I'm not sure if papyrus can take all of them.

 

The rest of the conflicts should be solvable via TES5Edit, provided you know how to use it.

[AddictedxGamer]

Brief Analysis:

 

Better Dynamic Snow must come before SMIM in Conflicting Graphics. Skyrim HD should come right after SMIM.

 

I was already aware of this, but thanks for pointing it out nonetheless!  According to the mod page for SMIM, as of version 2.0 for BDS, the mod uses a BSA, and thus the installation order doesn't matter.  The loose files from SMIM will always overwrite the files installed by BDS because it uses said BSA.  When I made the spreadsheet I forgot to list BDS before SMIM, but I'd never forget to install it first, even knowing what I just mentioned from the SMIM mod page.  I've got the following order memorized from my many attempts at a stable, modded game.  

 

Also according to the SMIM mod page, this is the following order I should observe when installing the following mods.

 

Ruins Clutter Improved --> Better Dynamic Snow --> Complete Crafting Overhaul Remade, SkyFalls and SkyMills, Ultimate HD Fire Effects (in any order) --> Static Mesh Improvement Mod --> Skyrim HD --> Enhanced Lights & FX, Realistic Water Two (in any order)

 

You're running a lot of heavy script mods in that setup. I'm not sure if papyrus can take all of them.

 

I am?  I didn't think I was...  Can you provide some examples?  The "Populated" series is supposed to be script-free, and I downloaded the no-scripts version of Revenge of the Enemies when I discovered the mod.  Which others use scripts?

 

The rest of the conflicts should be solvable via TES5Edit, provided you know how to use it.

 

How do you solve conflicts in TES5Edit?  I know that you can select every activated plugin once you launch the program, and if there are problems with the load order it will pop an error message after failing to completely load everything.  Gopher covered that in one of his videos about the program, and it's very useful for checking that BOSS/LOOT sorted everything properly.

My replies are in orange again.  Thank you!  

[AddictedxGamer]

What's the best way to test an installation of STEP Extended for stability?  Should I actually play the game for a while (do some random quests, explore some dungeons, etc), or should I do some Stress testing (TGM, Speedmult 400)?

[BUBISHI]

Stresstesting around Whiterun is what I did: entering and leaving cells (dungeons/cities) in this area. Stealing a horse at the stables and annoying the guard and letting them follow you down to Ford Greymoor and engage with the bandidts there.

In addition I also speedmultihacked and run for 5minutes, should crash the game but you will have some light frezes as the game loads. Maybe testing if all the mod menues appear in MCM...

[AddictedxGamer]

Stresstesting around Whiterun is what I did: entering and leaving cells (dungeons/cities) in this area. Stealing a horse at the stables and annoying the guard and letting them follow you down to Ford Greymoor and engage with the bandidts there.

In addition I also speedmultihacked and run for 5minutes, should crash the game but you will have some light frezes as the game loads. Maybe testing if all the mod menues appear in MCM...

Do you mean that it shouldn't crash the game?  You said that it should, and from what I've heard and read, that isn't true; a stable game shouldn't crash while running a stress test.

 

Also, I've already configured all of the mods in their respective MCM menus, so I know they all appeared as they should have.

[camaro_69_327]

Vaportrails's post above i couldent put better...it is a trail and error thing. I spent about 3 months reading , testing , adding, removing mods . i started with a clean slate, (vanilla) Knowing my first Toon was a throw-away i rushed thru the tutorial, Saved outside, and started adding mods , testing, running around and causing trouble, never worrying about removing a mod and backing up a save or 2. AS stated i spent months doing this slowly, on the Weekends i would read up on a mod or 5 add then to the game . Stress test. then during  the week i would play , Stress test , next weekend add more...rinse and repeat.

 

Using STEP /EXT was a godsend, it allowed me a solid base i could build upon. and that i did...i run 254 mods+ (bash is hiding 6)..lol Do not know if this is the correct approach or not, but what i did is as follows....Once i did all the testing of the mods i want on top of STEP (weeded out a bunch) I installed all of STEP core first, did minor testing, Installed all of extended...more minor testing. Then added all my mods. 

 

Using MO i created a category for every section the WIKI has. (Exact replica) same thing i had in Wrye.

Downloaded every CORE and Extended mod and placed them in Order.

Installed all Core mods

Installed all Extended mods.

Install Extended patch.

 

All Core and extended mods are forced into the Order they are on the Wiki page. Now, for all the mods i added on top, i let all mods go into the default Categories that MO gave then , only had to add categorizes for a few mods. ALL my mods start after the end of the STEP install. all in one Profile.

 

Saturday i played 6 hours straight. Sunday 7 hours. so far this is level 15,  30 + game hours and so far 2 crashes....one about 2 weeks ago, was at end of a 8 hour run, dawnguard dude talked to me ..middle of convo..crash..going right back all was good...saturday ,,,came out of a cave, freezing cold had to build fire (frostfall can be a pain), still freezing to death, tried to make it to shelter, had helper with me, spun 360 , (heard a noise) and crash...none repeatable just overload...lol 

 

Point is , yes stable with 250 mods, some heavy hitting..you are on the right track with your List. Take it slow, test. IF you add a mod and get a crash...think about the mod you added. I had a few that caused me crashes during testing, and i do not use them. Not saying anything against any mods but ...i had crashes with a weather mod,(very popular) i do not use it. 

 

During my mod testing phase i did the benchmark runs (as outlined in the STEP wiki) this was to know what i was doing to my game and system.

 

Doing the Stress test. (speed multi 1500) have done a bunch of those, you should never crash. (yes most do), do them at a lower speed if crashing. 1000 should work . If your crashing before 5 mins, its a problem. You will stutter, pause, and generally have fits but should not crash. Here is a screen shot of SPM after a 45 min run at speed multi 1500. Now that's stress testing. Covered the entire map a few times.

 

This is how i set up MO, all of Step is above Automatic Variants and StarX AV Packages, (for some reason that wouldn't merge with the rest of AV? so i left it .) All my mods are in the categories MO assigned them, (think according to what they have at Nexus.) So far this is really stable and i have not found anything out of place or acting weird. Still new game (30 hours) so i wont be able to say Rock stable till say 100 hours and level 50?..:)

 

 

 

[AddictedxGamer]

 

Vaportrails's post above i couldent put better...it is a trail and error thing. I spent about 3 months reading , testing , adding, removing mods . i started with a clean slate, (vanilla) Knowing my first Toon was a throw-away i rushed thru the tutorial, Saved outside, and started adding mods , testing, running around and causing trouble, never worrying about removing a mod and backing up a save or 2. AS stated i spent months doing this slowly, on the Weekends i would read up on a mod or 5 add then to the game . Stress test. then during  the week i would play , Stress test , next weekend add more...rinse and repeat. Using STEP /EXT was a godsend, it allowed me a solid base i could build upon. and that i did...i run 254 mods+ (bash is hiding 6)..lol Do not know if this is the correct approach or not, but what i did is as follows....Once i did all the testing of the mods i want on top of STEP (weeded out a bunch) I installed all of STEP core first, did minor testing, Installed all of extended...more minor testing. Then added all my mods.  Using MO i created a category for every section the WIKI has. (Exact replica) same thing i had in Wrye.Downloaded every CORE and Extended mod and placed them in Order.Installed all Core modsInstalled all Extended mods.Install Extended patch. All Core and extended mods are forced into the Order they are on the Wiki page. Now, for all the mods i added on top, i let all mods go into the default Categories that MO gave then , only had to add categorizes for a few mods. ALL my mods start after the end of the STEP install. all in one Profile. Saturday i played 6 hours straight. Sunday 7 hours. so far this is level 15,  30 + game hours and so far 2 crashes....one about 2 weeks ago, was at end of a 8 hour run, dawnguard dude talked to me ..middle of convo..crash..going right back all was good...saturday ,,,came out of a cave, freezing cold had to build fire (frostfall can be a pain), still freezing to death, tried to make it to shelter, had helper with me, spun 360 , (heard a noise) and crash...none repeatable just overload...lol  Point is , yes stable with 250 mods, some heavy hitting..you are on the right track with your List. Take it slow, test. IF you add a mod and get a crash...think about the mod you added. I had a few that caused me crashes during testing, and i do not use them. Not saying anything against any mods but ...i had crashes with a weather mod,(very popular) i do not use it.  During my mod testing phase i did the benchmark runs (as outlined in the STEP wiki) this was to know what i was doing to my game and system. Doing the Stress test. (speed multi 1500) have done a bunch of those, you should never crash. (yes most do), do them at a lower speed if crashing. 1000 should work . If your crashing before 5 mins, its a problem. You will stutter, pause, and generally have fits but should not crash. Here is a screen shot of SPM after a 45 min run at speed multi 1500. Now that's stress testing. Covered the entire map a few times. This is how i set up MO, all of Step is above Automatic Variants and StarX AV Packages, (for some reason that wouldn't merge with the rest of AV? so i left it .) All my mods are in the categories MO assigned them, (think according to what they have at Nexus.) So far this is really stable and i have not found anything out of place or acting weird. Still new game (30 hours) so i wont be able to say Rock stable till say 100 hours and level 50?..:)

 

I know that the process is going to be trial and error, but I'm hoping to shorten the process as much as I can. In the past when I've tried to follow the proper procedure, I've always ended up growing impatient and rushing into installing mod after mod without a care in the world. Then I'd get angry at the game when I was crashing all of the time, when it was my own fault. That's what I want to avoid this time around, but I don't want it to be months before I can actually PLAY the game...Like you, I've set up categories within the Mod Organizer. To do this, I created "Dummy Mods" inside the Mod OrganizerMods directory with the name of each category. Inside each folder is an empty text document of the same name, which is then zipped into an archive and installed into the Mod Organizer. This will allow me to easily place non-STEP mods within the appropriate category without much fuss.When I installed the mods from the STEP Guide (2.2.9), I installed them in the exact order listed, as I was told this is how it's meant to be done. I didn't install all of the Core mods first, then install all of the Extended mods; I installed them in the exact order presented, Core or Extended. I also installed all of the patches in section 2.N. as directed.I'm at the point now where I need to determine whether or not my game is stable. I've read mixed reviews on whether or not STEP actually creates a stable game, but I have hopes that I won't be crashing or having problems as of now, after completing the installation. The only thing that's been stopping me is trying to determine how I should actually go about testing for stability. I could play the main quest up to a certain point, play random side-quests and explore random locations, or I could stress test the game by running/flying around with the speedmult console command.Speaking of the stress test, I've read mixed reports on what defines stable during these tests. Some say that you should never crash with a stable game, no matter how long you test for. Others say that as long as you went for a certain amount of time before crashing, that you've still got a stable game. Which is it? If I can go at least 5 minutes every time before crashing, do I have a stable game, or is something still broken? This is why I get so frustrated with this process; variables.Another thing that's confusing me is where and how I should go about installing non-STEP mods after I've gotten a stable game. Do I disable all active mods and then add mods into the categories I've configured in the Mod Organizer, mixing them in with the STEP mods? Or, do I begin adding all of these non-STEP mods underneath all of the STEP mods (in the left pane of the Mod Organizer, I mean)? I don't the proper procedure, and wouldn't want to break what would be, at the time, my newly stable game.I realize I'm asking a lot of questions, and doing so in long-winded paragraphs, but that's just the kind of person I am. Being informed is the only way to be sure you're doing things right, and I'm a naturally well-written person. Hopefully you guys can bear with me until I'm all squared away.Thanks!

[redirishlord]

Good replies. Re- script heavy: Frostfall & needs mods can be demanding, once you get into combat (especially with spell effects flying around both your and npcs) the load can get problematic. The Convenient Horses mod offers a script latency checker through its MCM, you can use this during your stress testing, less than 75ms should be playable approaching 100ms and you should consider trimming the fat &/or making tough decision on whats important to you.

 

ex. I dropped Frostfall/Hunterborn/Realistic Needs so that I could have SIC/HLE/SkyTest with ACE Realistic Fighting/Deadly Combat and the Epic Gameplay Overhaul and spell effects (pyro much?).

 

Best of luck, you'll have as much fun (read: spend as much time) modding as you do playing if you're anything like me.

[AddictedxGamer]

Good replies. Re- script heavy: Frostfall & needs mods can be demanding, once you get into combat (especially with spell effects flying around both your and npcs) the load can get problematic. The Convenient Horses mod offers a script latency checker through its MCM, you can use this during your stress testing, less than 75ms should be playable approaching 100ms and you should consider trimming the fat &/or making tough decision on whats important to you. ex. I dropped Frostfall/Hunterborn/Realistic Needs so that I could have SIC/HLE/SkyTest with ACE Realistic Fighting/Deadly Combat and the Epic Gameplay Overhaul and spell effects (pyro much?). Best of luck, you'll have as much fun (read: spend as much time) modding as you do playing if you're anything like me.

Frostfall and either iNeed or Realistic Needs are mods that I consider essential. Skyrim Immersive Creatures is nice, but if I have to drop it in order to use the others, I guess I could do that. Deadly Combat, Deadly Dragons and Dragon Combat Overhaul are also mods that I really want to use, as the vanilla game fighting and enemy AI are rather terrible, LOL.

[camaro_69_327]

Stress testing....

 

To me a crash is a crash. Doesn't matter...stressing the game as we do with speed multi 1500 is close to a heated battle with 15 players throwing spells around and a couple followers, so ya a crash is a crash.

 

The pic i posted was from my longest run , i did not crash i got board...lol. I have done 10 or so Stress tests ranging in time from 5 mins to 45 mins..have not once crashed.