Step-by-step guide to using DynDOLOD Alpha with paper maps?

[Noobsayer]

On the flat world map framework page it lists the alpha has having trouble with flat maps, and gives a rather vague workaround on its page.

In older posts (like 2016-2019) with DynDOLOD here on STEP,  Sheson suggested running DynDOLOD without the maps and placing the maps below it after it when done. Current stuff says that you shouldn't remove any plugins to run DynDOLOD, that's a troubleshooting step only.

So ... ?

I can follow the STEP guide just fine to generate grass cache, xLODGen, TexGen and DynDOLOD. But before I sit through a long patching process to perhaps only fail, is there a clear, up-to-date guide for the alpha and paper maps, or should I just do as I normally would when generating these things (running with entire load order, plopping DynDOLOD in last).

I did try a search here and elsewhere but I either just found old/conflicting info. Any insight appreciated.

[Mousetick]

I'm using FWMF with a bunch of paper maps along with DynDOLOD 3 Alpha and everything works just fine

I think the warning about DynDOLOD on the FWMF page is misinformed/misguided. Some user, perhaps the MA himself, encountered some issue that they weren't able to resolve due to misunderstanding and lack of perseverance, and wrongly concluded, as is sadly too often the case, that it can't work at all. My advice: ignore the advice

There are some manual steps to be taken to make both work together. Unfortunately I worked on that some time ago and I can't quite remember what I did...

What I do remember for sure is: you need to hide or remove the LOD32 Terrain meshes (/meshes/terrain/worldspacename/*.32.x.y.btr files) generated by xLODGen Beta that conflict with the FWMF paper maps. The FWMF LOD32 Terrain meshes need to win, otherwise the flat paper maps won't be displayed.

In any case, you should run DynDOLOD 3 Alpha on the entire load order, including the FWMF plugins, as is the standard procedure.

I also have a custom patch plugin that I made in xEdit specifically for FWMF but I don't think it's related to DynDOLOD. I'll have to take a look at it again to remember what it does exactly.

I'll get back to you later on that. In the meantime, my recommendations:

• Remove 'A Clear Map of Skyrim and Other Worlds', and 'Unique Map Weather Framework' from your load order, as you won't need or use them anymore.
• Install FWMF, the Throat of the World fix, Flat Map Markers, and your chosen paper maps.
• Keep xLODGen Output, hide or remove conflicts as explained above.
• Temporarily disable DynDOLOD Output and all its plugins.
• Sort with LOOT. If I remember correctly, you'll need to create custom sorting rules so that the FWMF and paper map plugins are sorted towards the very end of the load order, because LOOT doesn't know how to autosort these plugins correctly. I used the 'Worldspace Settings' Group, which gives the desired results:

• Test in-game that your paper maps work correctly, without DynDOLOD.
• Run DynDOLOD to regenerate the plugins with the new load order.
• Test in-game with DynDOLOD.

If you run DynDOLOD again in the future to re-generate LODs, you can disable all LOD32 rules since you won't be needing them anymore (they're only useful on the 3D maps), which will save you a bit of processing time.

[Mousetick]

[Mousetick]

I went to the FWMF mod page and re-read the DynDOLOD 3 Alpha instructions. I was mistaken, it's not that they think it doesn't work at all, but they provide a convoluted procedure that doesn't fit at all with the STEP standard xLODGen + DynDOLOD procedure.

So again, I'd recommend ignoring those instructions and sticking to the STEP instructions for xLODGen + DynDOLOD. The only deviation is to resolve the LOD32 Terrain meshes conflicts as mentioned before. Instead of removing/hiding the xLODGen meshes, you could sort xLODGen Output mod before the FWMF mods on MO2's left pane so that the latter overwrites the former. This may be a better, more foolproof, approach in the event you need to regenerate terrain LODs with xLODGen - otherwise you'd need to remove/hide the conflicting LOD32 meshes again.

There are also LOD32 Terrain meshes conflicts between some paper maps (depending on which ones you pick) and Cathedral Landscapes. Again you need to make the paper maps win by overwriting Cathedral Landscapes.

[sheson]

On 7/17/2022 at 8:12 AM, Noobsayer said:

On the flat world map framework page it lists the alpha has having trouble with flat maps, and gives a rather vague workaround on its page.

In older posts (like 2016-2019) with DynDOLOD here on STEP,  Sheson suggested running DynDOLOD without the maps and placing the maps below it after it when done. Current stuff says that you shouldn't remove any plugins to run DynDOLOD, that's a troubleshooting step only.

So ... ?

I can follow the STEP guide just fine to generate grass cache, xLODGen, TexGen and DynDOLOD. But before I sit through a long patching process to perhaps only fail, is there a clear, up-to-date guide for the alpha and paper maps, or should I just do as I normally would when generating these things (running with entire load order, plopping DynDOLOD in last).

I did try a search here and elsewhere but I either just found old/conflicting info. Any insight appreciated.

If the map mod uses object LOD Level 32  (*.bto) for the maps, then there is no conflict with the default DynDOLOD settings, as DynDOLOD generates object LOD 4, 8 and 16. If it uses object LOD Level 16 for the map then its *.bto meshes need to overwrite the output of DynDOLOD. However, unlike object LOD level 32, object LOD level 16 is also used in the normal view, unless object LOD distance settings for object LOD level 8 are push out where object LOD level 16 starts.

If the map mod uses terrain LOD Level 32 (*.btr) for the map, then the map mod needs to overwrite terrain LOD meshes generated by xLODGen. There is no conflict with DynDOLOD.

Finalize the load order before generating LOD. Make sure the last plugin to overwrite the worldspace record(s) contains the desired settings for the map, so they will be carried forward into the plugins DynDOLOD creates.

For quicker testing you can simply run DynDOLOD object LOD for Tamriel only. Once things work, generate for all worldspaces and all desired options.

[Noobsayer]

OK, that's very helpful. 

So to be super clear (I'm using MO2):

1. Set up and enable full load order.
2. Create grass cache. Enable.
3. Create xLODGen, still with full load order, but place xLODGen output ABOVE the map files so it is overwritten by the map's terrain LOD meshes (I checked, it's .btr, although I'm not sure how to tell what terrain LOD Level it uses -- it's the standard Flat World Map framework mod). Enable.
4. Run TexGen, still with full load order. Place TexGen output below xLODGen output but above map files and Enable.
5. Run DynDOLOD, still with full load order. Place below map files and enable.

 

That sound about right? I was following the STEP guide on how to run/set up the tools, so that's not the confusing part, but obviously they don't use paper maps so I was a little lost there. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond.

[sheson]

35 minutes ago, Noobsayer said:

OK, that's very helpful. 

So to be super clear (I'm using MO2):

1. Set up and enable full load order.
2. Create grass cache. Enable.
3. Create xLODGen, still with full load order, but place xLODGen output ABOVE the map files so it is overwritten by the map's terrain LOD meshes (I checked, it's .btr, although I'm not sure how to tell what terrain LOD Level it uses -- it's the standard Flat World Map framework mod). Enable.
4. Run TexGen, still with full load order. Place TexGen output below xLODGen output but above map files and Enable.
5. Run DynDOLOD, still with full load order. Place below map files and enable.

 

That sound about right? I was following the STEP guide on how to run/set up the tools, so that's not the confusing part, but obviously they don't use paper maps so I was a little lost there. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond.

The first number of the LOD mesh file name is the LOD Level (4, 8, 16, 32). The other two are the x and y coordinate of the lower left cell for the area the LOD mesh covers. https://dyndolod.info/How-LOD-Works

Above/Below are ambiguous terms, since mod managers can sort ascending/descending.  Mods that overwrite have a higher priory than the mods that are being overwritten.

xLODGen output should be overwritten by the map mod.
TexGen/DynDOLOD have no conflicts with terrain LOD. TexGen output overwrites everything. DynDOLOD output overwrites TexGen.

[Noobsayer]

36 minutes ago, sheson said:

The first number of the LOD mesh file name is the LOD Level (4, 8, 16, 32). The other two are the x and y coordinate of the lower left cell for the area the LOD mesh covers. https://dyndolod.info/How-LOD-Works

Above/Below are ambiguous terms, since mod managers can sort ascending/descending.  Mods that overwrite have a higher priory than the mods that are being overwritten.

xLODGen output should be overwritten by the map mod.
TexGen/DynDOLOD have no conflicts with terrain LOD. TexGen output overwrites everything. DynDOLOD output overwrites TexGen.

Heh yeah, I always hesitate when trying to word around priority. I was referencing the list in the left MO2 panel. Thanks so much!

[trackho]

With the update to STEP including the Worldspace Transition Tweak, are there any updates needed to this line of instruction on making paper maps work with STEP Dyndolod?

[sheson]

16 minutes ago, trackho said:

With the update to STEP including the Worldspace Transition Tweak, are there any updates needed to this line of instruction on making paper maps work with STEP Dyndolod?

I can not help with third party guides. This is the DynDOLOD support forum. You probably want to ask questions about the guide and "this line of instruction" at  https://stepmodifications.org/forum/forum/157-step-skyrim-se-guide/

Generally, Worldspace Transition Tweaks is just a mod that modifies landscapes and does not change whatever steps might be needed for maps after LOD generation.

https://dyndolod.info/Mods/Maps-And-Map-Mods

[z929669]

6 hours ago, trackho said:

With the update to STEP including the Worldspace Transition Tweak, are there any updates needed to this line of instruction on making paper maps work with STEP Dyndolod?

Step does not use FWMF, so we do not support it. WTT has noting to do with that mod, and neither of these mods has anything to do with DynDOLOD or how it works. If you follow the guide, then this problem is n/a. If you install your own mods rather than following the guide, then obviously, we don't officially support it. You must understand how the map works and how xLODGen and DynDOLOD work in relation to the map.

Moved from DynDOLOD support forum.

[caites]

On 7/17/2022 at 10:51 AM, Mousetick said:

I went to the FWMF mod page and re-read the DynDOLOD 3 Alpha instructions. I was mistaken, it's not that they think it doesn't work at all, but they provide a convoluted procedure that doesn't fit at all with the STEP standard xLODGen + DynDOLOD procedure.

So again, I'd recommend ignoring those instructions and sticking to the STEP instructions for xLODGen + DynDOLOD. The only deviation is to resolve the LOD32 Terrain meshes conflicts as mentioned before. Instead of removing/hiding the xLODGen meshes, you could sort xLODGen Output mod before the FWMF mods on MO2's left pane so that the latter overwrites the former. This may be a better, more foolproof, approach in the event you need to regenerate terrain LODs with xLODGen - otherwise you'd need to remove/hide the conflicting LOD32 meshes again.

There are also LOD32 Terrain meshes conflicts between some paper maps (depending on which ones you pick) and Cathedral Landscapes. Again you need to make the paper maps win by overwriting Cathedral Landscapes.

Only now encountered that topic.

My advice about generating lods without FWMF on and putting framework below then was based on experience that FWMF doesn't break DynDOLOD work (since it uses only LOD32) and there will be no need to regenerate every time FWMF gets update, which happen often. If that is not true and such installation actually breaks any lod output or DynDOLOD plugin, I will remove that part completely without any problems.

Also, if anyone would reach me with clear explanation then, I would gladly add your recommended instructions, it's not like I have smth against DynDOLOD recommended generation rules or STEP suggestions or pretend I know something about DynDOLOD inner works, my modding experience is limited, FWMF is more about drawing maps than smth else and I, unfortunately, almost don't play actually modded Skyrim last year due to war in my country.

[DoubleYou]

42 minutes ago, caites said:

Only now encountered that topic.

My advice about generating lods without FWMF on and putting framework below then was based on experience that FWMF doesn't break DynDOLOD work (since it uses only LOD32) and there will be no need to regenerate every time FWMF gets update, which happen often. If that is not true and such installation actually breaks any lod output or DynDOLOD plugin, I will remove that part completely without any problems.

Also, if anyone would reach me with clear explanation then, I would gladly add your recommended instructions, it's not like I have smth against DynDOLOD recommended generation rules or STEP suggestions or pretend I know something about DynDOLOD inner works, my modding experience is limited, FWMF is more about drawing maps than smth else and I, unfortunately, almost don't play actually modded Skyrim last year due to war in my country.

Hey caites, glad to see you make it here! If you PM myself, z929669, or TechAngel85 on Nexus, we can give you the Mod Author role here. 

I only briefly looked at your instructions, but they seemed fine to me.

I wish you the best and safety during these hard times. 

[Mousetick]

1 hour ago, caites said:

Only now encountered that topic.

Hello Pavel, nice to see you here

At the time I wrote my comments, the instructions for using FMWF with DynDOLOD 3 were different. They were provided by a user and were very convoluted:

Quote

It is recommended to use DyndoLOD versions before Alpha 3 with FWMF. DyndoLOD Alpha 3 users can try (on their own risk) this guide by Mango Burn Spino:

[...]

They've since been removed. Consequently, please disregard what I wrote earlier.

The current instructions are simpler and clearer, however two alternate approaches are provided, which is rather confusing.

• Approach 1:

Quote

I recommend to generate LODs without FWMF mods installed and put FWMF bunch below DynDOLOD in plugin LO to avoid LODs regenerating after every FWMF update. FWMF affect only LOD32, it won't break DynDOLOD work. Here is advised plugin LO:

[...]

•  Approach 2:

Quote

You can stick to standard DynDOLOD generation procedure - generate outputs with FWMF on and place DynDOLOD last in plugin LO, it will properly allow FWMF worldspace records win everything else and maps will be working fine.

[...]

Approach #2 is the correct one and really the only one that should be advised and followed.

Please refer to the official DynDOLOD instructions for dealing with map mods: https://dyndolod.info/Mods/Maps-And-Map-Mods.

Those instructions are generic so some of them don't apply to FWMF, but these are particularly noteworthy (emphasis added):

Quote

Plugins of map mods often make changes to the worldspace records. Make sure to finalize the load order and make sure that the last plugin to overwrite the worldspace records (with maps) to contain all desired changes before generating LOD. DynDOLOD uses the records from the winning plugins when creating the DynDOLOD and Occlusion plugins. Do not disable any plugins, simply follow the Generation Instructions.

Instructions to overwrite the DynDOLOD or Occlusion plugins or to modify any of the generated plugins, LOD meshes or LOD textures after they have been generated for the finalized load order are categorically wrong. DynDOLOD is a patcher to automate these things.

Hope this helps. Take care.