DynDOLOD 3.00 Alpha 196

[sheson]

12 hours ago, ikonomov said:

While looking at distant objects, I noticed the HD/Ultra trees having this brightness/highlight parts during certain times of the day.  When they are rendered from up close I can see some of this variation, but it seems to be much less than the images of the billboards.  The real trouble is that when there are many trees in one place this bright crown of the trees seems to become more obvious.  I couldn't find a similar brightness settings for the trees, and I wonder if there is a way to adjust the brightness for the highlights of the tree billboard textures.

Brightness of tree LOD billboards can be adjusted on the DynDOLOD advanced options as usual or when generating tree LOD billboards with TexGen.

[ikonomov]

I've run both the TexGen and DynDOLOD about 10 times in the past few hours, each time regenerating everything.
I've tried settings from the default
Direct: 135, Ambient: 55 to
Direct: 0, Ambient: 15
I think having the Direct lighting at 0 made the bright highlights from the top of the trees slightly less, but I'm not really sure.  It is definitely still there, even with 0.  The Ambient at 15 is really low also.  If the "Preview" in TexGen is to be believed I should see really, really dark distant trees yet that is not happening.  Each time I'm testing it I'm loading a clean saved game I've made without any mods.  The brightness setting in DynDOLOD says Billboard brightness, which I assume will include grass billboards, which I don't want to change.  This highlight seems to be most visible on the few trees around Whiterun in the afternoon.  The trees around Lakeview Manor don't seem to have this behavior for some reason.  When I run DynDOLOD I select Ultra for tree LODs.

Edited February 22, 2021 by ikonomov

[ikonomov]

Some of the smaller trees have the same highlights in lower branches, but on the taller trees it looks to be mostly at the top of the trees.  It becomes especially noticeable when there are more tall trees together.

Edited February 22, 2021 by ikonomov

[sheson]

5 hours ago, ikonomov said:

I've run both the TexGen and DynDOLOD about 10 times in the past few hours, each time regenerating everything.
I've tried settings from the default
Direct: 135, Ambient: 55 to
Direct: 0, Ambient: 15
I think having the Direct lighting at 0 made the bright highlights from the top of the trees slightly less, but I'm not really sure.  It is definitely still there, even with 0.  The Ambient at 15 is really low also.  If the "Preview" in TexGen is to be believed I should see really, really dark distant trees yet that is not happening.  Each time I'm testing it I'm loading a clean saved game I've made without any mods.  The brightness setting in DynDOLOD says Billboard brightness, which I assume will include grass billboards, which I don't want to change.  This highlight seems to be most visible on the few trees around Whiterun in the afternoon.  The trees around Lakeview Manor don't seem to have this behavior for some reason.  When I run DynDOLOD I select Ultra for tree LODs.

Are you sure you are using billboards or HD billboards for tree LOD and that the screenshots are not showing 3D tree LOD?

What tree mod are you using? If the full model trees have this highlight, then why should LOD be any different? How do full models looks at the same distance? Use tfc and fly away from full models about the same distance.

Are you saying that the trees around Lakeview Manor are the same full model/billboards as around Whiterun but somehow look different?

[ikonomov]

6 hours ago, sheson said:

Are you sure you are using billboards or HD billboards for tree LOD and that the screenshots are not showing 3D tree LOD?

With previous 2.xx DynDOLOD versions I used Indistinguishable Billboards for Skyrim SE (VANILLA Medium).  Since one of the new changes in TexGen 3.00 said that it can now generate LOD billboards for grass and trees I assumed that I no longer need to use that mod, so I haven't installed it.  When I run TexGen I have Tree and HD Tree enabled, then when I run DynDOLOD I enable Ultra for tree LODs.

6 hours ago, sheson said:

What tree mod are you using?

I'm not using any tree mods.

6 hours ago, sheson said:

If the full model trees have this highlight, then why should LOD be any different?

There is a bit of highlight of the full model trees, but maybe it's 20%, while on the billboards it is say 100%.  I wouldn't mind some highlights, but the problem and what I tried to show is that while there's some highlights on the full model trees, it is happening on the needles throughout the whole tree and very little of it.  On the billboards there seems to be some threshold above which highlights and the increased brightness is really pushed, and because it is mostly at the crown of those pine trees it is very obvious.

6 hours ago, sheson said:

How do full models looks at the same distance? Use tfc and fly away from full models about the same distance.

That's how I've been testing.  The full models look fine and don't have this problem.

6 hours ago, sheson said:

Are you saying that the trees around Lakeview Manor are the same full model/billboards as around Whiterun but somehow look different?

I think the trees around Lakeview Manor and Whiterun use the same models.  My guess is that around Whiterun the lighting is a bit different which accentuates the highlights.

Edit: I should add that I'm not using any weather mods.  The only lighting mods I have installed are Darker Interior Ambient Fog and Darker Nights (Level 4).

Edited February 22, 2021 by ikonomov

[sheson]

18 minutes ago, ikonomov said:

With previous 2.xx DynDOLOD versions I used Indistinguishable Billboards for Skyrim SE (VANILLA Medium).  Since one of the new changes in TexGen 3.00 said that it can now generate LOD billboards for grass and trees I assumed that I no longer need to use that mod, so I haven't installed it.  When I run TexGen I have Tree and HD Tree enabled, then when I run DynDOLOD I enable Ultra for tree LODs.

This does not answer the question if the screenshots show tree LOD billboards whatever their source or 3D tree LOD models.

20 minutes ago, ikonomov said:

There is a bit of highlight of the full model trees, but maybe it's 20%, while on the billboards it is say 100%.  I wouldn't mind some highlights, but the problem and what I tried to show is that while there's some highlights on the full model trees, it is happening on the needles throughout the whole tree and very little of it.  On the billboards there seems to be some threshold above which highlights and the increased brightness is really pushed, and because it is mostly at the crown of those pine trees it is very obvious.

Textures are just images do not really have thresholds.

23 minutes ago, ikonomov said:

I think the trees around Lakeview Manor and Whiterun use the same models.  My guess is that around Whiterun the lighting is a bit different which accentuates the highlights.

Use console to check which base record and NIF the full model trees are using and also to set a specific weather regardless of location.

[ikonomov]

I think this image shows it as good as I can see it in-game.  I believe they are billboards, because once the model loads when I walk closer I can see the trees slightly change, as it happens with billboards.  These are the trees just west of Silent Moons Camp.  The problem happens to a number of full tree models, not just one.  I'm not sure how I can select it when the console is open to get the formIDs for those trees.  The weather ID is 10A243.

[sheson]

1 hour ago, ikonomov said:

I think this image shows it as good as I can see it in-game.  I believe they are billboards, because once the model loads when I walk closer I can see the trees slightly change, as it happens with billboards.  These are the trees just west of Silent Moons Camp.  The problem happens to a number of full tree models, not just one.  I'm not sure how I can select it when the console is open to get the formIDs for those trees.  The weather ID is 10A243.

You should know if you set Level0 or Billboard1/2/3 etc. for LOD Level 4 for the tree mesh rule.

To get information for a tree get close to it so that the full model is loaded, then open console and click it. More Informative Console will also display the used full model.

Generate LOD with current version of DynDOLOD 2.x and teh same ultra tree LOD settings to see if it actually is different.

 

[ikonomov]

52 minutes ago, sheson said:

You should know if you set Level0 or Billboard1/2/3 etc. for LOD Level 4 for the tree mesh rule.

To get information for a tree get close to it so that the full model is loaded, then open console and click it. More Informative Console will also display the used full model.

Generate LOD with current version of DynDOLOD 2.x and teh same ultra tree LOD settings to see if it actually is different.

 

I haven't changed or added any mesh rules.  The only changes to the DynDOLOD_SSE.ini I've made are:

Occlusion=1
OcclusionQuality=3
Grass=1
GrassBrightnessTopR=0.300
GrassBrightnessTopG=0.334
GrassBrightnessTopB=0.337
GrassBrightnessBottomR=0.240
GrassBrightnessBottomG=0.267
GrassBrightnessBottomB=0.270

and removing the mod warning for Open Cities.

I've read the Performance section of the second post, but I don't understand the mesh rule section.  If I need to change any of those settings or add in rules just let me know what and I can test.

Using the More Informative Console mod I was able to identify the one tree where this problem is most obvious, with the brightness/highlights only happening towards the top of the tree.

Base form ID: 00051126
TreePineForest05.nif

Another tree also has this problem, but the brightness/highlights are not just at the top, but also on lower branches.  The highlights are still too strong, but at least they are not just at the top so it's not as obvious.

Base form ID: 0004B016
TreePineForest03.nif

Just to clarify about using DynDOLOD 2.x.  I need to run TexGen from 3.00, generate Grass/Tree billboards, and then run DynDOLOD 2.x with the Ultra trees selected, correct?

[sheson]

2 hours ago, ikonomov said:

I haven't changed or added any mesh rules.  The only changes to the DynDOLOD_SSE.ini I've made are:

Occlusion=1
OcclusionQuality=3
Grass=1
GrassBrightnessTopR=0.300
GrassBrightnessTopG=0.334
GrassBrightnessTopB=0.337
GrassBrightnessBottomR=0.240
GrassBrightnessBottomG=0.267
GrassBrightnessBottomB=0.270

and removing the mod warning for Open Cities.

I've read the Performance section of the second post, but I don't understand the mesh rule section.  If I need to change any of those settings or add in rules just let me know what and I can test.

Using the More Informative Console mod I was able to identify the one tree where this problem is most obvious, with the brightness/highlights only happening towards the top of the tree.

Base form ID:
TreePineForest05.nif

Another tree also has this problem, but the brightness/highlights are not just at the top, but also on lower branches.  The highlights are still too strong, but at least they are not just at the top so it's not as obvious.

Base form ID: 0004B016
TreePineForest03.nif

Just to clarify about using DynDOLOD 2.x.  I need to run TexGen from 3.00, generate Grass/Tree billboards, and then run DynDOLOD 2.x with the Ultra trees selected, correct?

Ultra tree LOD generation is explained in ..\DynDOLOD\docs\trees.ultra\DynDOLOD-Trees.html

Depending on your preference,  you either set Billboard1 or Level0 (Billboard or Static LOD4 in DynDOLOD 2.x)  for LOD Level 4 on the tree mesh rule for billboards or 3D tree LOD models in the first LOD level. The default value depends on the low, medium or high preset.

Do not use anything from DynDOLOD/TexGen 3 Alpha with DynDOLOD/TexGen 2.x

I am under the impression you used ultra tree LOD with DynDOLOD 2.x before and you didn't notice anything like with it. You seem to believe this is due to tree LOD billboards generated by TexGen 3 alpha. I would like to compare to the 2.x LOD generation you had before.

For DynDOLOD 3, open ..\DynDOLOD\Logs\DynDOLOD_SSE_Tree_Report.txt, search for 00051126
If should either say Level0: Billboard1 using internal or Level0: meshes\dyndolod\lod\trees\treepineforest05passthru_lod.nif using texture...

For DynDOLDO 2.x the similar looking tree LOD report is printed to the normal message log.

I need to know if the tree LOD is billboards or 3D LOD models so I know what to actually look at. I also need to know if this is a new issue or already existed before.

[ikonomov]

I just installed
Indistinguishable Billboards for Skyrim SE (VANILLA Medium)
DynDOLOD 2.88 Resources
DynDOLOD 2.93
generated textures using the default settings
generated LODs with DynDOLOD > Advanced > High (two times because of Open Cities)

and after I read some of the DynDOLOD-Trees.html I think I have an idea about what is going on.  Because the trees change their shape three times depending on how far I am from them I think I'm seeing three different versions of them.  Assuming the High settings set LOD 4 to use Static LOD4, and the same for DynDOLOD 3.0.  What I see is the highlights accentuated in Static LOD4 even with 2.x, but because this only happens at a very specific distance it was not very obvious because the majority of trees use the billboards (Indistinguishable) at a far distance and the ones up close use the full models.  I understand Static LOD4 use part of the full models for the branches, I think the highlights get accentuated because of the fog that gets applied at a distance which seems to make the highlights even brighter.  On billboards with DynDOLOD 3.0 the highlights get even brighter the further away they get as the fog gets denser.  Logically this should not be a problem, because the fog brightness should affect all color shades the same, but I think as the objects get smaller and they are scaled down, the needles that reflect the sunlight and become bright scale in such a way that it makes a whole section of the tree brighter.

For some reason the brightness control for Tree texture generation in TexGen 3.0 didn't have any affect for me, but I believe if it works with a bit of adjustment it might be possible to tone down the direct/ambient light in such a way to minimize this at least for the billboards.  I understand at Static LOD4 there will be some of this brightness still, but even so it's not as bad as the billboards.  A solution could be to have a separate direct/ambient control for Static LOD4 as well if possible, or we can just use billboards for LOD 4.

Edit: I just checked the log from running DynDOLOD 2.x and I see meshes being used for LOD4, this should indicate Static LOD4 used, correct?

Edit2: If somebody else is reading this they might be wondering, why don't I just use the Indistinguishable billboards with DynDOLOD 3.0.  The answer is that I don't like the Indistinguishable Juniper tree billboards.  I thought about mixing the billboards from Indistinguishable and 3.0, but then I decided discussing the problem here might be a good idea since the project is still in alpha phase.

Edited February 22, 2021 by ikonomov

[ikonomov]

I was just trying to compare the billboard of TreePineForest05 between Indistinguishable and the one generated by TexGen 3.0.  It seems they are different.  Indistiguishable uses one .DDS file while TexGen 3.0 has created 4 just for this tree and when I open them they are mostly just black.  I'm using an older nvidia photoshop DDS plugin 8.55.0109.1800 downloaded before it required a subscription.  I imagine the intel plugin is even older and has even less chance of opening those files correctly.  I wish I can compare those files side by side and see where this highlight is coming from, though that isn't really going to be helping much.

I also forgot to set the weather when testing with 2.x to the same one used in the previous two screenshots in the animated .gif with 3.0 version, but I think I know why I didn't see the highlights around Lakeview Manor.  It happens when I'm looking at the trees facing the sun in the afternoon.  Strangely enough if I turn around facing east during the same time of the day looking at the same trees from standing west of them I don't see the same hightlights.  I'll install back 3.0 and take some more screenshots.

Edited February 23, 2021 by ikonomov

[sheson]

14 hours ago, ikonomov said:

For some reason the brightness control for Tree texture generation in TexGen 3.0 didn't have any affect for me, but I believe if it works with a bit of adjustment it might be possible to tone down the direct/ambient light in such a way to minimize this at least for the billboards.

If changing the brightness of textures seemingly does not have any effect in the game, you are either changing the wrong settings/billboard type or the updated billboards are not installed when generating LOD / updating the texture atlas.

You can emulate with TexGen what happens to the lighting of the full model when the sun is low: set direct light to maximum and ambient to minimum. Change Front/Back to either full left or fully right. You get really distinct dark and lit up pieces. The way this information makes it into the HD billboard is via the normal map.

Test if increasing the smoothness of the HD normal map texture of the HD billboads helps to lessen the effect in the game.

 

14 hours ago, ikonomov said:

Edit: I just checked the log from running DynDOLOD 2.x and I see meshes being used for LOD4, this should indicate Static LOD4 used, correct?

If the mentioned NIF is the 3D tree LOD model (typically has _lod in the filename) and not the full mode (typically does not have _lod in the filename)l.

 

8 hours ago, ikonomov said:

I was just trying to compare the billboard of TreePineForest05 between Indistinguishable and the one generated by TexGen 3.0.  It seems they are different.  Indistiguishable uses one .DDS file while TexGen 3.0 has created 4 just for this tree ...

It should be no surprise that billboards are different (manually screenshotted from NifSkope versus a high quality render of the current full model) or that billboards from mods do not contain any HD billboards e.g. front and side views and normal maps.

 

8 hours ago, ikonomov said:

... and when I open them they are mostly just black.  I'm using an older nvidia photoshop DDS plugin 8.55.0109.1800 downloaded before it required a subscription.  I imagine the intel plugin is even older and has even less chance of opening those files correctly.  I wish I can compare those files side by side and see where this highlight is coming from, though that isn't really going to be helping much.

The compression format of generated textures can be changed in TexGen at any time. Age is not a good indicator of supported formats. The Intel plugin can read/write BC7 for example.

If you believe the mip mapping of textures affects things, you can could test if removing them from the generated atlas textures ..\Textures\DynDOLOD\LOD\DynDOLOD_Tamriel.dds and Tamriel_n.dds helps.

[ikonomov]

OK.  I think I've found where I was wrong in the testing I did the other day when generating textures at various brightness settings.  I went back to 3.0 and generated textures again, but this time I set both direct and ambient at 0 for HD tree to make sure I'll clearly see the billboards in game.  I'm including screenshots of the settings I use just in case something is relevant.

Finally I saw the billboards!  They are black, and are really, really far away.  Previously I assumed that they are just beyond the loaded cell.  Then I learned of the Static LOD4.  But seeing how far the billboards are it must be then that Static LOD4 is what's in-betweeen the loaded cells and those far black billboards, correct?  The log says:
LOD4: Level0
LOD8: Billboard1 using internal
LOD16: Billboard1 using internal

If that's the case then the bright highlights must not be caused by the billboards, but by the Static LOD4, which I guess we have no control over in terms of brightness, correct?

I want to try the High settings, but changing the trees to use billboards in LOD4.  How can I go about doing this, would changing

LODGen42=tree,Static LOD4,Billboard,Billboard,Far LOD,Unchanged,1

to

LODGen42=tree,Billboard,Billboard,Billboard,Far LOD,Unchanged,1

in DynDOLOD_SSE_high.ini do the trick, or do I need so change something else?

Edited February 23, 2021 by ikonomov

[sheson]

48 minutes ago, ikonomov said:

Finally I saw the billboards!  They are black, and are really, really far away.  Previously I assumed that they are just beyond the loaded cell.  Then I learned of the Static LOD4.  But seeing how far the billboards are it must be then that Static LOD4 is what's in-betweeen the loaded cells and those far black billboards, correct?  The log says:
LOD4: Level0
LOD8: Billboard1 using internal
LOD16: Billboard1 using internal

If that's the case then the bright highlights must not be caused by the billboards, but by the Static LOD4, which I guess we have no control over in terms of brightness, correct?

I want to try the High settings, but changing the trees to use billboards in LOD4.  How can I go about doing this, would changing

LODGen42=tree,Static LOD4,Billboard,Billboard,Far LOD,Unchanged,1

to

LODGen42=tree,Billboard,Billboard,Billboard,Far LOD,Unchanged,1

in DynDOLOD_SSE_high.ini do the trick, or do I need so change something else?

Yes, those first settings mean the billboards are only used in LOD 8 and 16. The distance of where LOD level 4 end and LOD level 8 starts is controlled by fBlockLevel0Distance.

If you set Billboard1 for LOD level 4, then they will immediately start showing beyond the loaded cells. You can edit the ini  (Billboard = Billboard1) if you like, but typically you would edit the rule in the advanced options and save the preset. 

There is currently no settings that can change LOD models. As such 3D tree LOD models are object LOD models. Atm the only way to change anything about them is to edit the LOD models.

The 3D tree LOD models uses the full models leafs copied 1:1, so whatever you are seeing happens because the LOD shader is a limited subset of the full tree shader.

With a lot of time and NifSkope and experimenting with a couple shader settings or maybe manually editing normal vectors with Blender/3DSMax it might be possible to make the tree LOD a bit less susceptible to low sun directions.

One way to make a shape in a model darker is to use vertex colors.