FO3 doubts about Wrye Flash

[Himself]

Hi all and sorry to bother! =)

 

The process to create a Bashed Patch seems simple enough (in youtube videos xD), however there are many doubts that a basic user like me has, and would be nice to have this cleared/explained, gonna try to cover it so that this topic is useful in the future.

 

1 - Bashed Patch and Merged Patch?
I've read that a bashed patch and a merged patch are not the same thing. Can someone explain how a bashed is different? I mean, merged patch in Xedit is easy and intuitive enough, since every conflict/lines can be seen and areas expanded or even edited https://postimg.org/image/ggu7hgom3/

However when making a bashed, wrye flash just "does its thing" and I dont really understand what it did, or "how it fares" compated to an Xedit merged, care to explain the big picture?, no nitpicking needed.

 

 

2 - Merged Patch + Bashed Patch (or vice-versa), and Load Order.

I'm assuming trying to create both and have the 2 work concurrently is bad and should not be done.

As for load order there seems to be some conflicting information... for example this mod (The Wasteland Patch Collection) states that its plugins be loaded after a merged patch, however wrye flash seems to think its plugins can be included in the bashed patch (https://postimg.org/image/i7o54v45x/full/), what is the correct course here, do I follow wrye flash or the mod author? (in doubt because the author was probably referring to an Xedit merged patch).

Note that including these into a bashed patch will make the load order quite confusing, since the load order by the end/botton (done by LOOT) is supposed to be quite sensitive, does it matter?

 

 

3 - Leaving plugins outside of a Bashed Patch, or loading plugin(s) after the bashed patch.
Okay so plugins that were merged in a bashed patch must be ticked off in the order (except purple text that must be ticked on/reactivated), but left there in order since the need may come to re-build patch, at wich point ticked off plugins must ALL be ticked on again right?

 

I've done some editing years ago and still have my plugin, back in the day it was safe to leave it after a merged patch. Are there any pros/cons or general guidelines/information to something that goes AFTER the bashed patch in load order? (like basic tips to know IF it should be loaded after, and HOW MUCH OVERWRITING -OR HARM- it is going to do)


Thats it! I'll add/edit if something else comes. If anyone can answer these even partially of just share some knowledge, please be my guest =]

Thanks to all of you who make modding community to be special!

Edited November 28, 2015 by Himself

[Deadmano]

Hi there guys,

 

Just thought I would quickly pop in here officially before I respond in length to Kelmych.

 

It has been a while since I have worked on my own patches, what with work and my programming course, but the issue I had was that in some cases a bashed patch would incorrectly carry over records or merge records from other mods that I SPECIFICALLY chose to leave out BY HAND in order to carry over balance aspects such as in the case of FWE.

 

So it is not as much bashed patches don't work as it is a specific request I have to ensure everything works as intended. ::

 

I wouldn't put up such a warning if it were not absolutely necessary. You can bash and merge as you wish with every other mod out there (subject to any author notes etc.) but my patches should be loaded as stand-alone overwriting patches as the changes are required. You can however (and I ABSOLUTELY recommend it) merge all the patches safely, once you have them in the correct order as specified (in the case of multi-patch patches). The latter is an unfortunate side-effect which I hope to correct in due time with an even more streamlined installer.

 

Sorry for any confusion caused, I hope I can clear that up as well.

[Kelmych]

This STEP guide on merging plugins has a concise overview of the capabilities of different tools. It might be helpful for you.

 

The Merged patch and the bashed patch are completely different and provide very different functionality. Merged patches are primarily used when you are combining records from plugins that don't have conflicts, or have conflicts that can be easily handled. Wrye Bash/Flash has logic to decide which records from which plugin to use when there are conflicts between one or more plugins. It doesn't handle all conflicts but it handles some of them. Bash tags are used to help in this process by indicating which record types in a particular plugin are more important.

[Himself]

Thanks again Kelmych!!

 

I really tried to get it, but most of the tech terms leave me more confused, sorry I'm probably slow to catch up...

(the parts about FormIDs  and NavMesh were straightforward enough)

What it seems you're saying tough, is that a bashed patch will treat entries that contain bash tags differently ('usually' preserving) even if those entries are not the last ones, because such entries are to be handled differently based on each setup/load order.

 

I did a merged patch and a bashed from the same mods, and the bashed patch has massive content when compared to the merged, wich has little.

 

Since both are different and serve different functionality, I'm still wondering if making both does any good? Or for my (simple user) purposes the bashed patch is enough.

 

Also, still unsure about the plugins from The Wasteland Patch Collection, if these can participate in a bashed patch as wrye flash seems to want to, or not.

Specifically: Should I just leave the bashed patch at botton, everything ticked, letting Wrye flash does as it pleases?

[Kesta]

Bashed patches can handle things merged patches doesn't, and vice-versa. The merged patch functionnality of xEdit never got completely finished, so it handle very few things, which explain why your merged patch had so little content.

 

Keep in mind that what both of those tools does is actually just automation for conflict resolution. Learning the concept behind it and how to do it by hand (which could be vulgarized at "looking at what you have to drag n drop in xEdit") could help you a lot. And wouldn't take muore time than trying to understand how to use those tools without knowing what they're actually doing behind the scene (which become limpid once you understand why you need them).

Edited November 24, 2015 by Kesta

[Himself]

Well... does anybody know the right procedure for Fallout 3? I'll try to leave it as well explained as I can..
 
Cut paste from The Wasteland Patch Collection load order.txt  :
 
^---All Other Mods
Merged Patch.esp
Bashed Patch, 0.esp

##ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER .esp FILES AFTER THIS POINT!##
(and then it presents the order for (TWPC)*.esps plugins previously selected/installed through The Wasteland Patch Collection:)

#CHOOSE ONLY 1#
(TWPC) 20CWRE-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 1/3
(TWPC) 20CWRE-WMK-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 2/3
(TWPC) 20CWRE-WMK-RIFWC-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 3/3

#CHOOSE ONLY 1#
(TWPC) 20CWRECW-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 1/2
(TWPC) 20CWRECW-WMK-RIFWC-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 2/2

(TWPC) BBB-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp
(TWPC) BBD-FWE Patch.esp
(TWPC) BFM-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp
(TWPC) BRCC-PB Patch.esp
(TWPC) BVR-FWE Patch.esp
(TWPC) CMRP-FWE Patch.esp
(TWPC) CPWM-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp
(TWPC) DIFF3-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp
(TWPC) DM-UUF3P-DW Patch.esp
(TWPC) GE-UUF3P Patch.esp
(TWPC) HFA-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp
(TWPC) HRWW-DIFF3-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp

#CHOOSE ONLY 1#
(TWPC) K9B-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 1/2
(TWPC) K9B-MMM-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 2/2

(TWPC) MMM-EBTMGFWE-UUF3P-FWE Patch
(TWPC) PLR-MMM Patch.esp
(TWPC) PLR-UUF3P-ISS Patch.esp
(TWPC) PRA-FWE Patch.esp

#CHOOSE ONLY 1#
(TWPC) RBS-MMM Patch.esp <--- Option 1/2
(TWPC) RBS-MMM-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 2/2

(TWPC) RIL-UUF3P-DM Patch.esp

#CHOOSE ONLY 1#
(TWPC) RRE-FWE Patch <--- Option 1/2
(TWPC) RRE-PB-FWE Patch <--- Option 2/2

(TWPC) TMI-FWE Patch.esp
(TWPC) WMK-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp

#CHOOSE ONLY 1#
(TWPC) WD-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 1/2
(TWPC) WD-DIFF3-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 2/2

(TWPC) DIFF3-RI-EVE-MMM-WMK-PRA-F3HMG-F3HF-20CWRE-IMPACT-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp

#CHOOSE ONLY 1#
(TWPC) BFO-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 1/4
(TWPC) BFO-MMM-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 2/4
(TWPC) BFO-EVE-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 3/4
(TWPC) BFO-MMM-EVE-UUF3P-FWE Patch.esp <--- Option 4/4

 

 

Issue #1: The ##ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER .esp FILES AFTER THIS POINT!##

LOOT doesn't seem to care for that, it places some of the (TWPC) plugins way above/behind in the order leaving other non-(TWPC) plugins taking precedence. It also places the Bashed Patch, 0.esp by last (after all else), contrary to the info from the txt above where it places Bashed Patch, 0.esp before all the (TWPC) plugins.

 

And to further complicate...

 

Issue #2: Wrye Flash wants to merge most (if not all) of the (TWPC) plugins into the bashed patch: https://postimg.org/image/ekgzeau2z/

That would be great to cut load order and eliminate many plugins, however it does not go into accord with The Wasteland Patch Collection prerogative of having all its (TWPC) plugins by last, even after a merged/bashed patch.

 

 

Do I follow The Wasteland Patch Collection, subvert LOOT order and place all its (TWPC) plugins by last and leave those out of a bashed patch, or do I follow LOOT and Wrye Flash, leave the order as is and include all (TWPC) plugins in the bashed patch?

 

Really puzzled with this and since I'm a noob to that, can only hope for advice.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Himself

[Kelmych]

I also have some questions about this and I sent a note to Deadmano asking about a few of the patches. All of the patches need to be at or near the end of the load order, so all of then need to be reordered in LOOT.

[GrantSP]

Welcome to STEP @Deadmano

[Deadmano]

Welcome to STEP @Deadmano

Thanks MistakenMystic!

 

An interesting point I thought I would add to this...

 

 

LOOT doesn't seem to care for that, it places some of the (TWPC) plugins way above/behind in the order leaving other non-(TWPC) plugins taking precedence.

One needs to remember that LOOT is not the be all and end all tool of modding. It is heavily based on user input/mod authors to specify what goes where, and it cannot possibly account for the tons of mods being added/updated all of the time. It is a great concept, but sadly it does not work as originally hoped for (when it comes to quite the larger load order). I have had it many times place like-mod (Weather/Animations/NPCs) etc. all over the place and I prefer to neatly group things for consistency/troubleshooting. Furthermore it doesn't account for any patches that are made for other mods (like TWPC) so often times my TWPC patches are in different load orders UNLESS a fake master is set. Combined with the fact that some mods are just meant to override others (and LOOT does not know this unless specifically told) it becomes quite the headache.

 

I am sure STEP has a full on guide to proper LOOT usage, but from personal experience you will want to manually sort once LOOT gives you the base and knowing what a mod does (taking a quick peek with xEdit) can certainly help and lessen your conflicts, etc. So in short, it isn't the tool's fault, but rather the lack of support for the newer mods like TWPC. If we build a database collaboratively and agree upon the best load order then we are definitely making progress, but that is something that takes a ton of effort! For now, that is why I specify explicitly that TWPC patches be loaded at the end of your load order, and not after the specific mods being patched, as many other mods later on in the load order may still conflict with my changes. :O_o:

 

If you have any other further questions/comments feel free to ask!

[Kelmych]

The FO3 guide on STEP mentions that the Wasteland Patch Collection patches need to be loaded after the bashed patch. There will be an update shortly to the userlist.yaml referenced in the guide that includes entries for these so LOOT will put them in the correct place.

 

If there are other recommendations for additions to the userlist.yaml for the FO3 guide to make it easier to use LOOT let me know.

[Himself]

Thanks guys!