Why SKSE plugins can be installed but other *SE plugins can't.

[GrantSP]

OK, let's set the stage.

I have just recently converted to MO and I started with my new installation of Skyrim. I followed the video tutorials and wiki pages and I have successfully modded that game and it runs perfectly. Obviously this meant I installed SKSE manually. The mods that have SKSE plugins I installed via MO and they all work, ie. they appear in the logs and the functionality is evident.

 

Now I am in the process of migrating Oblivion, Fallout [3/NV] over to MO with fresh installs and loads via MO.

 

Starting with Oblivion I gave myself a fresh install from disc and started with the basic/essential mods. This also meant OBSE installed manually. Again, everything works as I expect. Next step though threw me. As I had been able to install mods that have *SE plugins via MO into Skyrim I expected the same for Oblivion. No such luck.

After posting a 'bug' report on the tracker, Tannin responded with the message that *SE plugins can't be installed via MO and must be done manually. Now I don't have a problem with installing them manually, I just want to know:

 

What are so different with OBSE, and I assume FOSE/NVSE plugins, from SKSE plugins that they need to be handled differently?

 

BTW, I am fully expecting someone to say something like: "they are all supposed to be installed manually, so you must have installed them outside of MO before."

Nope, my Skyrim Data folder is as clean as the day it was installed, nothing 'non-Bethesda' in it.

 

Feel free to be as technically descriptive as you need to be. I am not a novice when it comes to code. I can read and understand most languages, sadly though that doesn't transfer across to writing and creating new code, much to my dismay. I have never been able to get that part of my brain to fire.  

[GSDFan]

Which OBSE mod / plugin are you trying to install?

 

As a side note the OBSE extender works differently in Oblivion than the other extenders in the other games. It cannot be launched directly from MO and will not activate when the game is launched from MO. As far as I know it will only activate when the game is launched from Steam. 

The fix is to go into MO settings, the wrench and screwdriver icon, and select the workaround tab. Under load Mechanism you need to change it to “Script Extender†and click OK out of the setup and shut down MO. This will create an OBSE plugins folder in the vanilla data folder with a couple of MO filed inside.This setting will make the MO virtual directory one big OBSE mod. From now on you have to mod in MO and launch the game from Steam to see the changes mods make.

 

I hope this has shed some light on this for you.

[DoubleYou]

The other script extenders are created differently. It's not like TES5Edit, where the same executable is applicable to all games. Instead each is created differently. I suppose some good coders could go in and edit them to work with MO, but script extender plugins are probably some of the cleanest in-data mods ever created, so there isn't much incentive.

One thing I've wished we had in these situations is an option to install these mods to the data directory within MO, with a big fat warning sign or something. But I haven't used MO much with the other games, so it hasn't been a major annoyance.

[GrantSP]

hmm... more questions!

 

As far as to which OBSE plugins, any and all of them as far as I can tell. Specifically OneTweak, OBGEv2, ChangeConsoleKey and the two that come with the UOP - jail-fix & training.

 

OneTweak was actually the one that got me thinking something screwy was happening as it is the exact same plugin for all the Bethesda games, hence it is coded to recognize ALL of the *SEs that are around. I haven't moved onto setting up my Fallout[3/NV] games yet so I can't verify whether they work like Skyrim or Oblivion, with regards to handling *SE plugins through MO.

 

@GSDFan

Thank you for that reminder about the workaround but I think I will just stick to adding the Oblivion OBSE plugins by hand. I install them via MO if they have any ini or docs with them and then delete the *.dll via the 'Filetree' tab and move the *.dll into the OBSEPlugins folder manually. That way the Data tab on the right side only shows plugins installed into "data" and doesn't highlight duplicates in red.

That way I have a visual indicator (in the left hand pane) of which plugins are installed, and which version it is. Neat, effective and it satisfies my OCD nicely.

 

PS. I don't have a Steam version, just plain old DVD copy. Not that that should make any difference.

 

@DoubleYou

Yeah, I'm with you. If we could install those type of files that "may be considered dangerous" ie. they mess with the executable, via MO, then it would truly make it a painless experience for those with less experience. A warning icon just to remind them of the need for care.

 

Thank you both for your comments, sadly I am not 100% convinced that OBSE plugins can't be installed via MO but it isn't really that big a deal, just a curiosity I came across and wanted to know more. At any rate I am modding up all my games with this great piece of software and telling everyone I meet to do the same. It simply is a brilliant tool.

[DoubleYou]

Be aware that OneTweak does have some compatibility issues with MO that may induce crashing (if my memory serves me right).

[GrantSP]

Be aware that OneTweak does have some compatibility issues with MO that may induce crashing (if my memory serves me right).

Really? Could you be more specific? I haven't come across any references to that and so far it looks to be performing fine.

 

Just had further confirmation from Tannin about OBSE plugins and yes, they are somewhat different to SKSE. Bummer.

Edited September 29, 2014 by GrantSP

[DoubleYou]

Actually now that I look again, it was an incompatibility between ENB and OneTweak with the borderless window options I believe. Only SKSE plugin I have heard as being incompatible with MO is Nitpick, since they both mess with the same thing.

[Tannin]

dll injection between obse and skse works differently. I just checked out the code of both.MO injects by starting the process (the game in this case) paused, inserts its own initialization before the actual game code and continues the process:a) init vfsb) start gameObse does exactly the same, except that, since MO goes first, obse inserts its initialization before MO so the sequence becomes1) init obse2) init vfs3) start gameThis means obse loads its plugin before MO can start up its virtual filesystem.Now skse creates a so-called remote thread which will run in parallel with the game.1) init vfs2) start game + init skseThis means the vfs is already there when initializes.WHY skse uses a different init mechanism I do not know, in my experience remote threads cause more antivirus tools to throw a fit.Still, that's the situation, there is no obvious way to fix it. The best I can come up with is replace the obse_loader altogether and have MO inject obse directly.

As a side note the OBSE extender works differently in Oblivion than the other extenders in the other games. It cannot be launched directly from MO and will not activate when the game is launched from MO. As far as I know it will only activate when the game is launched from Steam.

This is true only for the steam version of oblivion.

[hishutup]

Could this be fixed some way...

 

I know there are others working on mo oblivion guides.

I currently don't though for other reason but I guess this is another reason.

 

Edit: oops re-read it which you answered which was no, it can't, but obse loader would have to be replaced.

 

I dont think you would know what changing the obse loader effects will be, but do you think that could affect heap replacements such as oblivion script extender

Edited September 29, 2014 by hishutup

[GrantSP]

I've re-installed my copy of Fallout 3 to test out MO with *SE plugins, my new Fallout New Vegas will arrive shortly, and it appears this weird behaviour is only with OBSE. I can successfully install FOSE plugins via MO and have them function perfectly.

 

I wonder why the team made the obse_loader operate so differently to the others? Not to worry, at least I now know why this is happening, the MO side of it at least. Thank you to all that responded. Hopefully this thread may serve some purpose for future reference.

[hishutup]

I was talking with Soire and she said there isn't an issue if the mods are manually installed in the actual Oblivion/Data/obse/plugins folder

I never tired it... 

[DoubleYou]

Yes, in the little bit of testing I did with Oblivion, it works if you place skse plugins in the actual data folder. Unfortunately, I never enjoyed the game (!) so I haven't tested it extensively.

[hishutup]

For me it doesn't matter. I am unlikely ever going to switch to MO, including the guide.

[GrantSP]

For me it doesn't matter. I am unlikely ever going to switch to MO, including the guide.

Wow, I am amazed by a comment like that. MO has so far proven, at least to me, to be a far superior way to manage mods.

Each to his/her own I guess.

 

As to OBSE plugins being installed manually, exactly, no issue there I was just surprised by the differences in OBSE and the other *SE plugins.

[hishutup]

Don't get me wrong, mo is great for some games like skyrim but oblivion is interesting because there are so many different types of packaging types. Omod, exe, wizard are the archive and installers that don't work with mo.

Yes, there are way around it but only if you know what you need and know the precise install order.

 

 

There are definitely perk to MO but wrye bash is way easier to manage when lo is constantly changing... Like unique landscapes... The wizard makes it in credibly easy but mo doesn't natively support it...

Which is a huge problem for me because have to try all the possibilities for the guide that need different attention.

In wrye bash check/uncheck a few boxes then anneal and it's all good. Mo is a different story because it's quite a long process.

 

Some tools that are going to be used later may take several minutes to several hours. Mo wouldn't be able to handle that. Mo takes about 2.5x longer on a few mods (dlc)... It may take longer.

 

This can go on but it's off topic and is definitely a personal choice because the guide so far is sticking with it and I also go out of my way to avoid band wagons.

[IvyMeadow]

Which OBSE mod / plugin are you trying to install?

 

As a side note the OBSE extender works differently in Oblivion than the other extenders in the other games. It cannot be launched directly from MO and will not activate when the game is launched from MO. As far as I know it will only activate when the game is launched from Steam.  

The fix is to go into MO settings, the wrench and screwdriver icon, and select the workaround tab. Under load Mechanism you need to change it to “Script Extender†and click OK out of the setup and shut down MO. This will create an OBSE plugins folder in the vanilla data folder with a couple of MO filed inside. This setting will make the MO virtual directory one big OBSE mod. From now on you have to mod in MO and launch the game from Steam to see the changes mods make.

 

I hope this has shed some light on this for you.

I do apolllogize for bringing this threat back from the dead, I was brought here by google while looking for a solution to my problem. I followed the instructions in this video,

, which are much like the above described work around, I have an issue, however, as whenever I launch through steam I ctd after selecting and game (cont, new, load.) whether or not I turn off all .esps in MO, the steam oblivion launcher only shows me .esps in the data folder, I've tried opening every the game every way I could think of, if it calls to steam it ctds after selecting a game at the main menu, any other way gets OBSE telling me to try steam. I'm sorry if this was discussed already. I couldn't find it.