Mod Organizer Priority order vs. Mod Index order

[Bundy714]

Ok, I can't find the answer anywhere, so here goes.  This is my first time using Mod Organizer. (it is really intimidating when you've been using NMM)  I've got all the utilities and third party programs working.  I started adding mods according to the order in STEP 2.2.7.    So, the left pane of M.O. has a Priority order, which is the order in which I loaded the mods.  I understand it is used when there are conflicting overwrites, but I don't have any so far.  After loading a few mods, I ran BOSS to make sure it was working.  It worked fine, opened my browser, showed my recommended load order and it was reflected in the MOD INDEX order in the Right Pane of M.O.

 

This is where I am a bit confused......while BOSS sorted my mods in the right pane (INDEX), my left pane (Priority) was not affected, it still has the mods listed in the order that I installed them.  Am I supposed to manually sort the Priority to match the Index, or just ignore the discrepancy? 

 

I'm thinking the INDEX is the order things will be loaded when I run the game, but I don't know if I should manually sort the Priority or not, since BOSS only seems to alter the Index, not the Priority.  Am I stressing over nothing, or what? Or is BOSS supposed to reorder both the Index and Priority and I don't have it set up right?

[GSDFan]

The order in the left pane is not touched by BOSS and there is no automatic sorting going on there. You have to manually drag and drop the order there. To aid in that, Tannin has implemented a feature that tracks the mod order in the left pane with the order in the right pane. Look for the triangle icon in the upper right and press it. A window will pop up with some suggestions. One of them will be "Potential Mod order problem.

 

Click on the problem to get a suggestion for the fix. Just keep in mind that that is not an end all, be all fix. You have to use common sense when ordering mods in the left pane. If for example two mods modify the same script, you have to decide which mods version to use by moving it to a higher priority overwriting the other. This holds true for any conflicting files on the left pane.

[Bundy714]

Hmmmm, I appreciate the quick reply. I've only installed the first 7 fixes in the 2.D. Fixes section of STEP 2.2.7 (stopped at dual sheath redux, because of the more complicated .jar set-up) when I wanted to test if BOSS worked correctly. So, as of yet, I have no conflicts or overwrites to deal with when I hit the Triangle....no mod order problems because so far, no conflicts or overwrites. All the triangle shows is that I have a file in my overwrite folder (the cleaned Update.esm), but no load order problems. So, I guess I do not necessarily have to reorder my Priorities to match my Index order, but should I, or should I only concern myself with it IF there is a load order problem?

 

Hard to believe I'm the only one that has questioned this, but I can't find any other info on this. I understand with the few fixes I've loaded that the priority really doesn't matter yet since there are no overwrites or conflicts....I'm just wondering if I should manually match the priority with the index as a "best practice" or just fool with it IF and WHEN I have a conflict? Otherwise leave it alone and not let it bother me? Hopefully I'm making sense.

 

Eventually when I load more mods, I will encounter instances where scripts or records are in conflict and then the priority will matter, but until that time, should I just ignore the priority, or should I get in the habit of reorganizing it to match the index order....that's pretty much the question.

[GSDFan]

As stated in the STEP guide:

Install mods in the order that they are presented in the following tables in order to achieve an aesthetically and mechanically well-vetted result. More experienced or adventurous modders may want to use STEP as a loose guide.

Guides like STEP and Skyrim Revisited are a good starting point for a modded Skyrim. Eventually as you gain more experience, confidence,

intuition and so on you can deviate from them and get good results.

 

Don't just install all of the mods blindly. Install a few at a time and check the left pane for conflicts test the game when possible. Don't spend more time modding than playing says the person who spends more time modding than playing.

 

A quick tip time saver if I may. You said you were at 2D. After you finish 2E interface stop and go to where the MO mods are, usually Mod Organizer\ mods. Archive all of the folders there to another place for safe keeping. Call it base mods. If for any reason down the road you have to start from scratch half of your work will be done, just extract that back to the mods directory. It will be old, but you can update as needed.

 

Skyproc patchers are like any other mod. Do a manual install and look at the structure in the window. With DSR just click on the second data folder, yes that is a folder as indicated by the triangle next to it. Right click it and select set data directory. The message at the bottom will change from red No game data on top level to green looks good. Click OK to install finish the install and enable it in the left pane.

 

To create the Executable go to the right panes Data tab and scroll down to where you see "SkyProc Patchers" folder. Expand that to reveal Dual Sheath Redux Patch.jar. You may need to move the Mods column by pointing near to the left of the Mods column header until the cursor changes and drag it to the left. Right click on the jar file and select add as executable. name it how you like and click OK. It will be available in the executables drop down selector.

[Bundy714]

Thanks GSDFan, I appreciate your help. I think I should catch some sleep, haha. I am stressing over stuff that doesn't really even matter it seems. Logically, without any conflicts, priority shouldn't have to mirror the index order. I'll worry with priority when there is a conflict and the priority actually matters. Thanks again. I'm going to knock this thing out after some rest.

 

And yeah, I know exactly what you mean about spending more time modding than playing....I am so guilty that I've never even finished the game. I can't seem to leave a stable game alone, I will mod it until until it's no longer stable. This time I'm determined to learn to use M.O. instead of NMM, and I will follow STEP, and once started, I will neither add, nor remove, any mods until the game is finished for once in my life. At least that's my plan. I swear to not look at new mods of the week until I finally finish the game, or they will tempt me. I am a mod addict, haha.

[Uhuru]

You are worrying over nothing. When you used NMM, you'd install mods in a certain order to decide on any conflicts and have to decide on the winner at that time. This is called the Install Order and apllies to all Mod s, changing this is difficult requiring uninstalling the Mods you wish to change and every mod between them in your Install Order. this is the Load Order and some mods have multiple files and some have none.

What BOSS sorts is not mods but ESP and ESM files

[Uhuru]

You are worrying over nothing. When you used NMM, you'd install mods in a certain order to decide on any conflicts and have to decide on the winner at that time. This is called the Install Order and apllies to all Mod Manager's, changing this is difficult requiring uninstalling the Mods you wish to change and every mod between them in your Install Order.

What BOSS sorts is not mods but ESP and ESM files, this is the Load Order, some mods don't have any ESP and ESM files and other Mods have multiple ESP and ESM files.

So even with NMM they are completely separate.

 

Now using Mod Organizer is exactly the same as regards BOSS and Load Order (Mod Index) except it is done to the Virtual Data Folder which requires Mod Organizer starting BOSS (or any other .Exe file in fact) which enables it to "see" the Virtual Data Folder which Mod Organizer creates on the fly (new one each time Mod Organizer starts) .

 

Now Install Order is exactly like NMM, but only when you first Install Mods.

This is basic common sense to start by installing the Mods you want to win conflicts last and is thus the default setting.

Often new users are surprised and dismayed that Mod Organizer does not ask the user what to do when a conflict occurs as NMM always does, because for NMM this decision is hard to change late .

 

Here is where Mod Organizer's unique features affect the entire established best practice which requires some unlearning of how things are done.

 

The key fact that you must learn is this:

 

Mod Organizer installs every Mod into it's own separate folder.

 

Simply that! This basic change fundamentally alters how Modding works and what Modders can do.

 

The implications are not always obvious so these are the main advantage;

 

No files are ever overwritten by another mod.

Alternate versions of same mod can be installed as a separate mod and switching between options is simple.

All profiles use same mod installation, you install once, use often.

Rearranging the Priority Order is simple, Drag and Drop is all that's needed.

[bitstream5]

i know this is an old topic but i was searching and trying to learn more and i hope to clear something up.

 

it seems pretty obvious but that usually does me little good...

 

So Mod Organizer automatically "anneals".  It never really overwrites a mod.  The "overwrite" is virtual and only an effect that occurs for game launch and load starting apps.  in other words the entire mod is saved independently and overwriting only occurs in the virtual directory when it is created at launch.  The entire mod file remains intact as a save in MO once installed regardless of susequent mod installations to MO. Modifying mod order in the left pane is effectively the same as changing install order and reinstalling everything but without the data loss that occurs in NMM or other installers that overwrite as mod installation occurs.

 

i spent a fair amount of time reading about modding and installing before i started MO and STEP.  I liked the fact that WRYE Bash automatically anneals (which I understand to mean that it reinserts files overwrriten by a leter installed mod when the later mod is uninstalled as opposed to leaving empty file space.)

 

Just want to make sure i am clear on this because a strong understanding of how it works really helps alot.  if my understanding is correct then this is huge improvement on prior installers.

 

i should add that i think users can use file explorer in MO to make permanent changes to the mods though.  (I have done this for some textures and the changes seem to be permanent unless i go back and change to the original textures (always add "orignal textures" subfolder in folder i modify)

[GSDFan]

Yes your assumptions are correct. Installed mods reside in their own folder in the mods folder. As long as you don't name a mod the same on install they will never overwrite files on the HDD. They can be manipulated from Windows file manager and any program by browsing to them.

 

Files that are not in a BSA can be right clicked and hidden from the information pane file tree, Conflicts upper pane and the data tab and unhidden just as easy.

[bitstream5]

Yes your assumptions are correct. Installed mods reside in their own folder in the mods folder. As long as you don't name a mod the same on install they will never overwrite files on the HDD. They can be manipulated from Windows file manager and any program by browsing to them. Files that are not in a BSA can be right clicked and hidden from the information pane file tree, Conflicts upper pane and the data tab and unhidden just as easy.

Thanks!

[aba42]

I hope this is the correct location for this.  I am installing Amazing Follower Tweaks ('cause it's the one I prefer).  I've run LOOT, Dual Sheath Redux, FNIS, and WryeBash to make sure there are no conflicts.  The problem is that MO is putting Amazing Follower Tweaks above several NPC mods that I've loaded, and therefore I am unable to apply AFT to those NPC's.  How does one edit the metadata specifically to load always at a specific priority in the load order or, better yet, tied to be specifically relative and adjacent to a particular file?  I haven't seen that specific discussion in Guide:  Mod Organizer.  In STEP, we tied two files together (two different times), but all that did was set relative priority.  How would we tie them to load immediately one after the other, and at a certain location near the bottom of the mod list (right pane)?

[aba42]

Mainly, it's a pain to have to physically drag and drop mods every time I add or remove another mod.  That's why I'd like about 4-6 mods to be set in a specific order as low as possible in the load order, but above STEP Extended Patch.esp.

[GrantSP]

Since the OP question in this topic is about load order vs priority order, ie. left hand pane vs right hand pane, are you also asking about the position of AFT in the left hand pane?

 

If so then the answer is: it makes no difference. If, as you say, you have run LOOT then MO will not change that order, it will use the order provided. In fact MO makes no recommendations on plugin OR mod order, it is all up to the user.

 

If on the other hand you are wanting to know how LOOT sets order, then LOOT's own documentation, either supplied on your system during installation or the online copy will answer that.

[aba42]

DRAT!!  I don't think I've gotten my question (any question) into the correct forum yet!  That's what I get for being an Old Fart.  Yup, you're absolutely correct, my query relates to LOOT's sorting into the right pane, and how to set LOOT's meta-data.  Gump!

Probably why I couldn't find my answer in the MO Manual, huh?  8-(

[Hawk]

I have a question related to the mod priority order vs. plugin load order. Probably this has been answered already somewhere, but I haven't found an answer easily and maybe having the answer in this thread will be helpful for someone in the future.

 

The recommended load order according to the mod documentations is:

GDO

WAF

CCF

 

According to STEP installation instructions:

 

Mods should be installed in the order that they are listed to ensure that mods further down the list overwrite those occurring before them. This is necessary to ensure the desired in-game effect. Mods are otherwise listed in alphabetical order within each section, and any deviations from this are purposeful to achieve the desired outcome.

The mods according to section 2.D are to be installed in this order (whole section looks like only alphabetically ordered):

CCF

GDO

WAF

 

Of course LOOT reorders my plugin load order (right pane) in the order as suggested by mod authors, however the mod priority order in the left pane remains, and thus a conflict was born: WAF overwrites Improved Closefaced Helmets (that is surely intended because of the compatiblity patch) and ALSO something in CCF. To be specific these files:

 

So my question is: What does the mod priority (a.k.a. left pane order) & plugin order affect differently? Are these specific conflicts irrelevant because maybe load order controls which files are actually used somehow (magically?) or should the left pane order be rearranged (contrary to the STEP instruction) according to the recommended load order so the files are overriden correctly?

Edited June 12, 2017 by Hawk

[Hawk]

So I wanted to edit my last post but can't, is it because of some other thread was active in this section?

 

Firstly, I did some more research on the forum and I found it mentioned, that I should follow the instructions of STEP in WAF overwriting CCF. However, I am unconvinced because CCF is by the author of both mods described like "an extension of and compliment to" WAF & it logically looks like CCF fixes something in WAF.

 

Secondly, I previously uploaded an unclear photo without the full path, so here it is:

This shows, that the overwritten files are a texture, 2 scripts and 4 meshes. Well ok, the scripts are maybe started only according to the load order but what about the textures and meshes? Shouldn't the CCF have higher priority?

 

In conclusion, why should WAF overwrite CCF? Does the load order affect overwriting of files?

Edited June 12, 2017 by Hawk