Why Elder Scrolls Online fails to Deliver (for me)

[Uhuru]

I began this as a reply to "ESO Beta" thread, but it's not about the Beta . It's the entire game.

First let me make clear this is about my expectations and Zenimax's failure to match their initial stated goals as expressed back when they first announced Elder Scrolls Online.

It is not about whether or not the released game is a failure or success.

Honestly, I don't care at all.

 

ESO (Elder Scrolls Online) not ESMMO (Elder Scrolls Massive Multiplayer Online) is basically the problem as it was promoted both in name and in fact as Elder Scrolls Online, not another MMO, but something new and innovative.

 

What that Means for Me

• Explore the whole TES (The Elder Scrolls) Universe (Eventually using new content updates, Tamriel at launch of game).
• Ability to be any race in any place you choose without restrictions (Specific set starts only if random within chosen region is impossible).
• It's a feudal society higher ranks are NPC only, commoners (all players) are restricted politically, This is how it is, ability will only go so far, never over the glass ceiling.
• Those changes are rare and happen over generations, if the family is not knocked down.
• Cities and Major Roads are Empire protection zones with local "Kings" controlling regional Towns and roads. "Lords" to village level. No Safe Zones, but very dangerous to break the law, all three could be hunting lawbreakers.
• All State territories are ridiculously expensive to own property in, even with noble patronage when it's cheaper but never much cheaper as nobles live off the extortion of wealthy commoners, most residents rent a small room or part of one.
• In reality even though they claim to rule all Tamriel at most they control 5%, the rest is what players explore, at start everywhere is an NPC dominated PvE system where only random in same place and time PvP happens.
• As any place is cleared it can be occupied. This creates set piece PvP dynamically increasing with time with some limits. Larger Ruins and Dungeons kept for PvE reasons and will never be fully cleared.
• Voice communication is in game hearing range only, everybody in hearing range includes the enemy, so shouting has bigger range than a whisper. In game language distortion would mean it can heard, but not understand if that language is not spoken.

• Combining this with the bigger the group the more attention they attract with ultimate result being The Empire deciding you're a threat and destroying the group.
• Ideally optimum group size is 4 to 8 players, where smaller groups use stealth tactics to avoid larger forces that optimum size can meet head on.
• Increasing size beyond optimum will increase the threat posed to local powers, resulting in ever increasing effort to eliminate the threat.
• Eventually the group will be reduced to a no more threat size, either by attrition or common sense survival need.

I could go on giving further details of an ideal game, but the core is enough and to summarise.

If it's not in world it's not allowed at all, no radios means hearing range communicaton only. In game Guilds and Alliances only with no gaming guild advantages over independants.

 

What it Doesn't Mean for Me (The Flaws and Lack of Vision)

• The player's group is restricted to 3 out of 10 races and a third of available territory, Cyrodill's race, the Imperials don't even exist at all, never will this restriction change.
• The war over Cyrodill is the worst thing they could have done ever. Only massive Keeps can be owned and only by real world guilds. This is how the Emperor will be decided by real world politics of gaming guilds not even ingame abilities.
• The whole game is based on this artificial war on the assumption that players want to be the Emperor. I know people might wish they could be the Emperor or Jarl, the reality is it would be useless as a part of a RPG
  • The main role would be telling others what to do, not actually doing it. That is a strategic power game not a RPG.
  • Skyrim's civil war was not the same thing, that was a lone operative role with strategy the Jarls responsibility.
• The main problem is this is nothing to do with TES and is pure MMO PvP based crap shoot where what Real World Guild a player belongs to is more important than anything iin game.
• All game mechanics are distorted by this system and it ruins adventure and exploring RPG elements with the restrictions imposed. It is the take no risks mentality the safe and well trodden path, no innovation here.
• First person mode is included, but the way it was done says it's  a bolt on to an existing MMO game (It will be in the game later, not we built the game around it).
• Combat again is Elder Scrolls Like but very limited, Accepted thaat the game cannot be frozen to select spells, potions, switch weapons and change into that special armour.
  • 5 or 8 Hotkeys (Think it's 5 but whichever) though is ridiculous, if I know 50 spells I need many hotkeys for them not guess what I will need.

I could go on with further bullet points, but I'd lost the enthusiasm this initially instilled in me by now, it's just another MMO mass battle PvP game and all TES features appear to be bolted onto that base MMO package as window dressing neccessary only to convince TES fans to pay for subscriptions.

 

This is not ESO it's pure MMO and definitely not adventuring with friends, more Huge battles with strangers. The PvE there is left is Pure PvE and never will they meet.

 

Some more observations of the defenders of this game, no surprise to me most defenders are MMO players and most critics are TES Players.

Common defense "You can't do that it's a MMO, that can't be done in a MMO"

My response: There are no rules that can't be broken, it's more a matter of vision and determination to compolete that vision, not yet been done doesn't mean can't.

Typical examples; You Can't Mod MMO - You Can't have good graphics on MMO's.

My response: Day-Z a "Mod" for Arma 2 manasged about 1 Million online users and take a look at what Star Citizen is doing with graphics.

There not MMO's they don't count

My response: a million users for one mod of a game is pretty massive Multiplayer in my book and I think you'll find they was online as well, but even if I accepted they weren't MMO's that's fine as well I don't want to play on your MMO I just want to play TES online taking nothing at all from your MMO's I don't like and don't play them.

 

I can solve to both Mods and Graphics by using the same thing which isn't new or particularly innovative just very practical.

Graphics of MMO's are usually rubbish for one reason, the lowest common denominator approach, which is whats the worst system that we want the game to run on. Thats the graphics sorted.

Simply providing different servers for different quality graphics would solve this problem and the same goes for mods there can be a vanilla never touched server, one for approved Mods, Stable, Released, Beta, Alpha, Experimental Servers. Combining these two separate server tiers Graphics and Mods can solve all possible combinations and provide an additional source for new cvontent that can be fully tested before selective inclusion into approved servers, most mod serrvers could be comminity run with just the top few tiers controlled by game makers.

Before someone says, but it's one big mega server I'll respond to that now

• Well actually no it's not Already I know of three "Mega Servers", PC and Mac; XBox 1; Playstation 4
• That's automatically 3 Levels of System Graphics ability

• PC and Mac (the best you can get is roughly 3 times better than Playstation 4 and about 5 times better than XBox 1)
• Playstation 4 (Consnsus is ability is about 1.5 times XBox 1)
• XBox 1 ( the weakling unless Wii U is counted in for ESO it's not)

The reason that the consoles can't match even PC's with the same hardware as them, never mind PC's can have better hardware, even with same graphics consoles don't have enough power. They aer limited to only 300W for entire system while PC's draw whatever is required, which can be for example 250W for a single card and about 750W for the entire System. Multiple cards increase this, My 2 Card System has 1200W power supply, though I can sqeeze another card in with that power.

 

More importantly I'm discussing what could and should be done not what is being done. Many more examples could be given but this is becoming slightly more than a quick response.

Not a Wall of Text, Just the foundations, when you see one of my well built solid walls you will understand, this is just a basic supporting structure for a real wall to stand on!

 

You may agree with me or not but this is my reasons for being hugely dissapointed and let down from the intial enthusiasm that was instilled by ESO

Now the fire is out and all thats left is a Mass Battle in ESMMO. I will not be joining any side in this totally unLOREful triumvirate of so called Allies.

[Aiyen]

Sounds like your general critique is the same that EVERY MMO have had since the dawn of MMO time.

 

It could always be made better, and more epic etc. But the sad fact is that it would also increase development time by so large amounts that nobody would pay for the project.

Most of what you describe would simply take way way WAY too long to implement, stability test etc.

 

There is a reason most MMO´s all look alike in both concept and content, its easy to do, and you save a lot of development time doing it.

 

One thing I would like to touch on is your comments about graphics. It is partly true.

One always go for the lowest common denominator, since people for strange reasons like to play on consoles and laptops etc. Hence if you spend several years doing a project and it can only run on computers that 1% of your market segment owns then you have done something wrong, and you just lost a very large amount of money!

 

Another thing is that it is not just this that is the limit. Again the more advanced the graphics, the longer the development time, and more vitally, the higher the risk of complications due to the more advanced graphics when put up on a multiplayer platform.

The actual image rendering is no problem, the problem is when you need to have advanced effects link and show for many people at once. Simply getting more server power is not going to solve this, only long development, and rigorous testing is... which again cost a lot of money to do!

 

I could go on and pick your post apart and put a "It would increase development cost too much"... since that about sums up why it is not done! It is not about lacking vision etc. it simply about nobody is going to put money into your project if your vision is too unrealistic.

[mothergoose729]

Yeah your expectations for ESO were much higher than mine. All of that sounds really cool, I would definitely pay for a game that had all that in it. ESO definitely doesn't have all of that.

 

I was pretty cynical coming in. I expected a WoW clone with the most superficial ES slapped on top of that. In some ways it is just that, but it has enough ES spirit in it that I am reasonably satisfied. I haven't done any of the PvP elements, which will likely not interest me at all anyway, but doing the exploration I found rather satisfying, although exceedingly easy (but maybe it gets harder further in idk). I would describe cooperative mode as "parallel questing" rather than cooperative questing, which sounds bad but it has its ups and downs. The characters in game speak to you, the player, so you complete them individually. You want a cooperative mod you play with your buddy and you do the same quest at the same time. There might be improvements or enhancements to that at later stages of the game or in a later version of the beta, idk. The quests where interesting enough that I was left fairly satisfied.

 

The thing ESO is severaly lacking is any ability to seriously role play. MMOs in general have this weakness. The free-for-all nature of the games make it rather difficult to get immersed in anyway, or create any kind of portrait for your character. There definitely could have been more done to give the player the feeling that their character is special and unique and that they have some control over who they are and where they came from. You don't really get any of that.

 

Other than this though, my opinion pretty much echo Aiyen's. An ESO world like you described would be really cool, but the reality of creating such a thing doesn't make good business sense... or rather its a huge risk in that there would be millions in additional development costs. Hard to float that up the cooperate ladder. I am hoping there will be another beta weekend soon and I can get further into it. What I said before in the ESO beta thread I will repeat here; people who like MMOs are going to have a lot of fun with ESO, the hardcore ES fans probably will not. Its a different kind of game from the single player experience, and all the good, and lots of bad, that comes with that.

[Zerocloud411]

I'm not surprised in the least because MMOs, pretty much since WoW got big, have not been made with any intention of longevity or substance (other than arguably GW2 to a degree) and are just big hype trains that always claim to be innovative and blabla and turn out to be more bland and juvenile in structure and gameplay than an rpg made in the 90s. Paul Sage made it clear that they have no real intention of pleasing hardcore TES fans...and that's only logical since they're in the minority. However, I think the problem stems more from Zenimax and the clear fact that even the main TES series has been getting dumbed down significantly. I imagine TES6 is going to absolutely require mods up the bum just to be playable for somebody who isn't a console casual.

 

I also have always found it hilarious that constant outcry from fans for co-op capability has always been responded with "TES is meant to be a single player experience and adding multiplayer of any kind would no longer make it TES" and instead of adding a joinable friend like fable, they decide to make an MMO lmao. Hypocrisy at it's finest and I can only assume they said that to begin with because of the disgusting bad engine used since Morrowind.

[TehKaoZ]

Pretty much siding with Aiyen as well. Aside from the business model, it's difficult to make mmo's innovative simply because you have to keep it within a certain framework. This by definition will limit any creativity by which ESO or any mmo can be defined. Games more often than not come out looking like WoW clones for a reason, simply because it's not only cost efficient to do so, but because you simply cannot have all the stuff in a single player TES then you would in an mmo. Furthermore, any games that do try their best to do "innovation" in mmo's usually fall flat on their faces in the end anyways, mmo players are notoriously difficult to please, and when you add TES players on top of that, forget it. I WANT ESO to be a good game, but I am expecting an average "mmo" at best.

if people felt that SWTOR didn't deliver (speaking on innovation), than ESO definitely isn't going to be the next juggernaut.

That being said, all the stuff ESO is doing isn't even surprising to me, it was expected. Anyone who has ever kept track of mmo development knows how it goes by now and also knows not to get excited. Hardcore TES players who don't normally play mmo's probably won't find much in the game.

Personally the only thing I dislike that "could" have been done better is the storyline faction system. I am not an expert on TES lore but you can obviously see where ESO was "stuck" into the lore.

I had been watching shoddycast lately with his races of tamriel lore stories and it's funny how every race he covers you have the "oh btw, all these races that hate each other team up because of this, and afterward they go back to statuesque as if nothing changed"

Mechanics are limited in mmo's, but if you screw up the story, well then that's not excuse, but maybe I'm being too critical myself.

Done ranting =p

[Uhuru]

My Main Problem is the restrictions the PvP war imposes, as I said this is my personal reasons for losing interest, not intended as why it will or will not fail. The limitations of race mix and territory are purely because of the PvP war what TES Online means to me is RPG Adventure gaming this is severely limited by the PvP war. They initially sold it as not an MMO. Until developers come up with Online games where PvP is not an end in itself they will continue to fail to last. I want a game where I'm never sure if my enemy is Player or NPC this would provide a unique experience. The Basics I gave could apply to any Fantasy RPG. I speak as someone who values a natural type of playstyle without all the WoW copied rubbish. They have tried to TES it up, but thats bolted onto the MMO Core. Traditional MMO players are getting tired of this sort of thing and no new players are Joining. If they had taken the opposite approach of making an Online Elder Scrolls they said they were going to do. I would have been interested.

Basically the war puts to much emphasis on turn Left for PvP right for PvE and all other directions are blocked, I don't want that sort of hand holding. Even the war wasn't the final blow, the Race and area restrictions were. None of that was neccassry just typical MMO mindset. The whole philosophy is opposite to what they should have done.

Ignoring the modding community which as well established as it is would have provided plenty of extra content for players, which is exactly what online games are always short of, the server example I give is a simple and safe way that most content including highjer levels of graphics coulds be produced long term at very little cost.

 

Consoles are always going to hold PC gaming back if PC gamers allow it. It does not have to be that way anymore, if game publishers won't give PC gamers what we deserve we and developers can cut them out of the process and fund the games collectively.

I doubt Bethesda will follow that root as they are owned by Zenimax, but others are. I'd rather give a developer the money to make a game I want to play, than pay double the amount to a publisher for them to take 90% of the money.

That way the developers can make the game we both want. Just take a look at Star Citizen to see what crowd funding can do, $33,000,000+ ($33 Million) and still rising.

All that is already funded not promised, this is the future of PC gaming, where we decide what games we want and pay what we think it deserves of our money. Too often publishers interfere out of fear of not making money, I reject there fear driven decisions and will decide myself what games I want to back.

A typical example Cyan of Myst Fame developed Uru Live as a online game back before Morrowind, It was intended as an online game all along. Ubisoft the publisher then released 80% of the Online content as a single player game, still promising the online version as well for those who bought the single player game, then cancelled the online version when a lot of fans held off waiting for online to start. the game was ready for release but they cancelled it at last minute. Years later it emerged that the cancel decision was made before the Single Player version was made and in fact that was why it was made. Cyan have never really recovered but after stuggling along making myst remakes for phones and other platforms are now making a new Game using Crowdfunding. In fact lots of developers of great old games are finding it possible to make the game they want only by crowdfunding them. All PC gamers should seriously consider funding the games they want to see, you also get something in return for your money. the game is main thing but you can get added rewards for more money funded, it's your choice.

[Aiyen]

Crowd-funding is nice for singleplayer games for sure, and is most likely the future! Along with early alpha access, decisions on what stuff is in the game etc. etc.

People love that sort of thing, and it helps build up hype and a community where they feel like the developers care!

 

However there are several millions in difference between a singleplayer game and an MMO.... Even star citizen which you refer to would not be able to do it for the money it has gathered up. At least not without cutting back on content etc. Since yes people are giving money for it now because there is development and you can see how it progress etc. But with an MMO then alot of that development would go into servers, stability, how to make the clients talk bla bla bla. All of which is stuff that nobody really care about they just want it to work and expect it too. It essentially have no sales value in terms of crowd-funding.

 

Also those millions only cover development cost, not maintenance cost. Yes these are getting cheaper as server houses can offer them cheaper and cheaper. For small MMO´s this is no problem, but once you get too a certain size then you need quite the technician staff 24/7, which might be more then your average server house can offer.

This is another benefit from using already existing "simple" technology and copy over the other games... this means the framework is the same, and the server house most likely already know how to deal with it without having to add on extra special technicians.

 

Arghhhh ranting mode :D

 

Long story short.... MMOs are silly expensive, and crowd funding them with all that good stuff we all want and hope for each time, is most likely not going to happen anytime soon. Unless some billionaire decides that going to space is boring.. but making the best MMO EVER is what its all about!

[Ubeogesh]

Agree with TehKaoZ about the story thing...

 

There are 2 things I care about ESO:

1) It doesn't break TES Lore and Story and doesn't introduce any funky awkward additions to it

2) I never played any MMO and am afraid that MMO is mostly a competitive game. They only online game I played was Diablo II and there you just don't have time to pause for a minute and stare at something, or go to a merchant and trade for 15 minutes like I usually do in TES games. Other players are rushing forward cause they only care about how powerful their character is - and you have nobody to play with if you are slow! Also I remember a lot of players using exploits or cheats (i.e. MapHack) and finding quest locations first all the time - that is completely frustrating.

If similar situation will be in ESO than it will be a catastrophe.

 

However if I can find a party to do lore-friendly quests in TES world with, without any rush and competition - that is all I want.

Oh and I also want controller support on PC and first person view, but I can live without that.

 

Also I have just thought... did anyone hear from any news about ESO about following questions: items trade between players, sharing items between characters in an account, sharing loot, cheating, cheating prevention systems?

[Aiyen]

Unless they massively screwed up then the fact that its an MMO and on their servers.. should mean that cheating is not possible. And in the odd cases that is is then the exploits should be close-able in a matter of hours.

 

But D2 is a long way from any sort of MMO... in general then hack n slash games are only about the loot ... so no point in doing anything else in those games. It is just the ever eternal grind to satisfy peoples loot lust.

 

MMO´s normally have at least some story, and questing to do.. which you can do in your own time. Some might require parties etc.. but there it is mostly also just going quick about it, since people who have done it just want to move on to the next. One can hope that if there is any cinematic stuff that everyone is forced to wait until everyone says "Im ready".

 

In general unless you have friends to play with then there is always going to be some rushing involved since the people who might help you do not care about anything but moving on in the game.

[Ubeogesh]

You got my meaning perfectly. That's exactly what I'm afraid of - the rush. I understand there will be less rush in an MMORPG than in a multiplayer hack'n'slash, but there still will be when I'm playing with strangers (I have a fried that plans to play ESO, but I play games at random time mostly (it may be in the morning or at night, or even in the middle of a workday sometimes) so it will be difficult for me to co-op with someone)

[rootsrat]

Hack n slash games are (...snip...) just the ever eternal grind to satisfy peoples loot lust.

This deserves a place in a Phrase of the Month or something. Well stated!

[Ubeogesh]

OMG I just found out that there is an "Imperial edition" of the game that costs more and allows you to play as an Imperial.

Paying for in-game content - that stinks. I wouldn't care about imperials, because I don't plan to play as one (they were boring in previous TESs for me), but I thought they were promising at some that in-game content wouldn't be sold.

 

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en/preorder

 

There are also - RINGS OF MARA - "Complete the Ritual of Mara with a friend and receive an experience bonus when you play together."

That is actually pay to win. Oh my god that stinks even more. May you burn in Oblivion Zenimax

[Octopuss]

Pay to win is absolutely common these days. I don't know why are you so excited :P

[Neovalen]

Pay to win is absolutely common these days. I don't know why are you so excited :P

 

Not from any good company. Cosmetic items... sure NP. Pay to win needs to diaf.

 

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

[Freyrgjurd]

I was thinking of a PvE centered game. Read the whole description (since I didn't get a BETA invite) and got VERY frustrated.

 

This is going to be a neverending war of PvP boasting and those who play it for the PvE are getting massively capped by it. Plus, you are going to hear that old phrase from gankers (if possible): "If you can't handle it, don't play it".

 

I'll keep at wow for now, since nice graphics for a rushed pvp environment is not my thing.