DynDOLOD 3.00 Alpha 198

[Mousetick]

Thanks for your reply.

2 hours ago, sheson said:

Those seem to be 3D tree LOD models and not billboards. You generated ultra tree LOD with Level0 for LOD level 4.
Are those the vanilla full model trees but with a texture replacer?

Yes. That is correct. I warned you I didn't know what I was talking about. That was no joke. Now that I've gotten slightly wiser than previous post I can tell you what was shown in the screenshots are vanilla full models with a texture replacer (Pine Branches Redone), and Ultra Tree LOD Level 4 with 3D tree LOD models from DynDOLOD Resources.

2 hours ago, sheson said:

See https://dyndolod.info/Help/3D-Tree-LOD-Model and what it explains about the alpha threshold in the 3D tree LOD model to make textures appear thicker/thinner. Change in steps of +- 16.

If I'm understanding correctly, this would require editing the 3D tree LOD models from DynDOLOD Resources in NifSkope and adjusting the NiAlphaProperty of the branches, in steps of +/- 16. Is this correct? Should it be increased or decreased in order to make the LOD texture look "thinner" (i.e. more transparent I guess)?

Thanks.

[Lavitz]

On 9/13/2023 at 8:02 AM, sheson said:

Thanks for the complete report. Let me know if this test version fixes it https://mega.nz/file/MAAV3KRD#cPvZoQSvF2ktV80WMfskYmrTjUj3rPdA-2BrnHO-CQk

https://dyndolod.info/Mods/Beyond-Skyrim-Bruma is unrelated to this error.

Hey Sheson sorry I was offline for a few days and I think that link when dead, would you mind reposting it please and thank you.

[sheson]

9 hours ago, Mousetick said:

Thanks for your reply.

Yes. That is correct. I warned you I didn't know what I was talking about. That was no joke. Now that I've gotten slightly wiser than previous post I can tell you what was shown in the screenshots are vanilla full models with a texture replacer (Pine Branches Redone), and Ultra Tree LOD Level 4 with 3D tree LOD models from DynDOLOD Resources.

If I'm understanding correctly, this would require editing the 3D tree LOD models from DynDOLOD Resources in NifSkope and adjusting the NiAlphaProperty of the branches, in steps of +/- 16. Is this correct? Should it be increased or decreased in order to make the LOD texture look "thinner" (i.e. more transparent I guess)?

Thanks.

You can see changes in NifSkope. To make it appear thinner lower the threshold.

[sheson]

4 hours ago, Lavitz said:

Hey Sheson sorry I was offline for a few days and I think that link when dead, would you mind reposting it please and thank you.

Use the latest alpha version.

[Mousetick]

5 hours ago, sheson said:

You can see changes in NifSkope. To make it appear thinner lower the threshold.

Good thing you said the changes can be seen in NifSkope. It appears the threshold needs to be increased actually.

When I save an edited 3D tree LOD mesh from DynDOLOD Resources, NifSkope tells me "One or more blocks have had their Name sanitized". Is this going to be a problem?

For example, treepineforest02passthru_lod.nif:

• 9  BSTriShape (Name) = 'TreePineForest02_LOD_FLAT:9'
• 13 BSTriShape (Name) = 'TreePineForest02_LOD_FLAT:13'
• 17 BSTriShape (Name) = 'TreePineForest02_LOD_FLAT:17'

Thanks for your help.

[sheson]

51 minutes ago, Mousetick said:

Good thing you said the changes can be seen in NifSkope. It appears the threshold needs to be increased actually.

When I save an edited 3D tree LOD mesh from DynDOLOD Resources, NifSkope tells me "One or more blocks have had their Name sanitized". Is this going to be a problem?

For example, treepineforest02passthru_lod.nif:

• 9  BSTriShape (Name) = 'TreePineForest02_LOD_FLAT:9'
• 13 BSTriShape (Name) = 'TreePineForest02_LOD_FLAT:13'
• 17 BSTriShape (Name) = 'TreePineForest02_LOD_FLAT:17'

Thanks for your help.

Disable Auto Sanitize before Save in the File menu.

[Mousetick]

I've gotten even wiser and now I understand the 3D tree LOD textures are generated by LODgen, nothing to do with TexGen. Duh!

I initially tried NiAlphaProperty Threshold 112 -> 144, which made a small difference but not enough. So I cranked it up to 176.

Comparison in DynDOLOD_Tamriel.dds atlas: 112 > 176

The 3D tree LOD models from DynDOLOD Resources are quite good by themselves, but the difference in "lushiness" between full model and LOD because of the textures was jarring, especially during LOD -> full model transitions:

LOD on left half, full on right half: Before (112) > After (176)

This is much better, thank you. I may need to crank the threshold up even more, we'll see. I need to apply the same changes to the snowy and ashy variants. And to the aspen trees too, with which I'm using a similarly very thin, very transparent texture replacer.

---

The other hurdle I've been facing is the brightness of the tree LODs. I'm confused by all the options:

• Direct & Ambient lighting settings in TexGen.
• Billboard brightness* setting in DynDOLOD.
• CrownBrightness, TrunkBrightness and FlatTrunkBrightness settings in DynDOLOD_[GAMEMODE].ini:

; Vertexcolor multipliers for tree LOD models used in object LOD, see https://dyndolod.info/Help/Ultra-Tree-LOD
CrownBrightness=1
TrunkBrightness=1
FlatTrunkBrightness=1

My understanding is that the CrownBrightness, TrunkBrightness, and FlatTrunkBrightness are used exclusively with 3D tree LOD, which is not affected by Billboard brightness. I'm going to try and lower them because I think my Level0 tree LODs look too bright compared to full models.

Conversely Billboard brightness only affects the brightness of Ultra Tree LODs using billboards.

What to do with the TexGen settings, how do they interact/combine with the Ultra Tree LOD Billboard brightness? Should they be left alone, at default, and brightness be adjusted only in DynDOLOD?

* By the way, there is small typo in the tooltip for this setting: "Adjust brighntess of tree LOD billboards [...]"

Thanks.

[sheson]

14 minutes ago, Mousetick said:

I've gotten even wiser and now I understand the 3D tree LOD textures are generated by LODgen, nothing to do with TexGen. Duh!

https://dyndolod.info/Help/LODGen
LODGen is a command line tool that generates terrain LOD and object LOD meshes.

21 minutes ago, Mousetick said:

• Direct & Ambient lighting settings in TexGen.
• Billboard brightness* setting in DynDOLOD.
• CrownBrightness, TrunkBrightness and FlatTrunkBrightness settings in DynDOLOD_[GAMEMODE].ini:

; Vertexcolor multipliers for tree LOD models used in object LOD, see https://dyndolod.info/Help/Ultra-Tree-LOD
CrownBrightness=1
TrunkBrightness=1
FlatTrunkBrightness=1

My understanding is that the CrownBrightness, TrunkBrightness, and FlatTrunkBrightness are used exclusively with 3D tree LOD, which is not affected by Billboard brightness. I'm going to try and lower them because I think my Level0 tree LODs look too bright compared to full models.

Conversely Billboard brightness only affects the brightness of Ultra Tree LODs using billboards.

What to do with the TexGen settings, how do they interact/combine with the Ultra Tree LOD Billboard brightness? Should they be left alone, at default, and brightness be adjusted only in DynDOLOD?

* By the way, there is small typo in the tooltip for this setting: "Adjust brighntess of tree LOD billboards [...]"

Thanks.

https://dyndolod.info/Help/TexGen#Grass-HD-Grass-Tree-HD-Tree-Rendered
Tree LOD billboards are required for standard tree LOD generation or ultra tree LOD generation.
HD Tree LOD billboards are for the optional ultra tree LOD generation.
Rendered billboards are for the optional ultra tree LOD generation. They are rendered from special models in the ..\DynDOLOD\Edit Scripts\DynDOLOD\Render\Billboards\ folder. They generate trunk textures for hybrid tree LOD models for example.

Use the preview buttons to see.

[Mousetick]

2 hours ago, sheson said:

https://dyndolod.info/Help/LODGen
LODGen is a command line tool that generates terrain LOD and object LOD meshes.

Well this goes to show I'm still very much ignorant.

The pine branches LOD textures found in the DynDOLOD object LOD atlas clearly show they are a downsampled version of the original treepineforestbranchcomp.dds texture, taking into account the NiAlphaProperty threshold of the 3D tree LOD models. I have not run TexGen since one month ago. So they must be generated by something, which is neither TexGen nor LODgen. But what exactly shall remain a mystery. Maybe Texconv during DynDOLOD generation.

treepineforestbranchcomp.dds > DynDOLOD_Tamriel.dds

2 hours ago, sheson said:

https://dyndolod.info/Help/TexGen#Grass-HD-Grass-Tree-HD-Tree-Rendered
Tree LOD billboards are required for standard tree LOD generation or ultra tree LOD generation.
HD Tree LOD billboards are for the optional ultra tree LOD generation.
Rendered billboards are for the optional ultra tree LOD generation. They are rendered from special models in the ..\DynDOLOD\Edit Scripts\DynDOLOD\Render\Billboards\ folder. They generate trunk textures for hybrid tree LOD models for example.

I'm sorry but this doesn't help at all.

I was wondering how the Direct + Ambient lighting settings in TexGen, which indirectly affect brightness, and the Billboard brightness setting in DynDOLOD, affect each other in combination, and how/why one might be used rather than the other.

• https://dyndolod.info/Help/TexGen:

Quote

Direct, Ambient, Smoothness

These settings change the direct (default from top) and ambient lighting strength for the created diffuse texture and the smoothness of the created normal map textures. Lower numbers mean less light strength = darker.

• https://dyndolod.info/Help/Ultra-Tree-LOD

Quote

Billboard Brightness
Use the Billboard brightness dropdown on the advanced mode in case the tree LOD billboards are too dark or too bright.

 

But it's ok. I appreciate the time and patience you've given me, especially during a week-end. I won't be bothering you any more and wasting your time with "stupid" questions.

[sheson]

41 minutes ago, Mousetick said:

Well this goes to show I'm still very much ignorant.

The pine branches LOD textures found in the DynDOLOD object LOD atlas clearly show they are a downsampled version of the original treepineforestbranchcomp.dds texture, taking into account the NiAlphaProperty threshold of the 3D tree LOD models. I have not run TexGen since one month ago. So they must be generated by something, which is neither TexGen nor LODgen. But what exactly shall remain a mystery. Maybe Texconv during DynDOLOD generation.

treepineforestbranchcomp.dds > DynDOLOD_Tamriel.dds

I'm sorry but this doesn't help at all.

I was wondering how the Direct + Ambient lighting settings in TexGen, which indirectly affect brightness, and the Billboard brightness setting in DynDOLOD, affect each other in combination, and how/why one might be used rather than the other.

• https://dyndolod.info/Help/TexGen:

• https://dyndolod.info/Help/Ultra-Tree-LOD

 

But it's ok. I appreciate the time and patience you've given me, especially during a week-end. I won't be bothering you any more and wasting your time with "stupid" questions.

https://dyndolod.info/Help/3D-Tree-LOD-Model
DynDOLOD reads the alpha threshold from the NiAlphaProperty from the models used for LOD and adjusts the textures before it is added to the atlas texture

https://dyndolod.info/DynDOLOD-Reference
... xLODGen scans the world for applicable references, builds the required texture atlases ...
DynDOLOD improves the texture atlas creation.
https://dyndolod.info/DynDOLOD-Reference#8-Generate-object-LOD

In 3D there is by default a direct light (sun) and ambient light. You can see/test this better in NifSkope but also in the TexGen preview.
Ambient comes from all directions so its like brightness of the scene and direct light illuminates things from a specific direction. This controls the 3D scene for the render. Normal maps are a bump map, so the smoothness controls the max height of the rendered bump map. Again, this can be previewed in TexGen.
These things are fundamental 3D stuff that you can google and then read tons and tons of papers and wikis about it.

The brightness drop down for billboards is the same as the xLODGen brightness dropdown and affects the billboard textures before they are being added to the atlas. It a combination of adding (brightness) and multiplying (contrast) that Zilav originally came up with.

[Mousetick]

Thanks for your answers.

16 hours ago, sheson said:

https://dyndolod.info/Help/3D-Tree-LOD-Model
DynDOLOD reads the alpha threshold from the NiAlphaProperty from the models used for LOD and adjusts the textures before it is added to the atlas texture

Is there a DynDOLOD configuration setting, like there are in TexGen for Stitched/Rendered textures, to control the size of the generated 3D tree LOD model textures before they're added to the atlas? If not, what is the fixed size?

16 hours ago, sheson said:

In 3D there is by default a direct light (sun) and ambient light. You can see/test this better in NifSkope but also in the TexGen preview.
Ambient comes from all directions so its like brightness of the scene and direct light illuminates things from a specific direction. This controls the 3D scene for the render. Normal maps are a bump map, so the smoothness controls the max height of the rendered bump map. Again, this can be previewed in TexGen.
These things are fundamental 3D stuff that you can google and then read tons and tons of papers and wikis about it.

The brightness drop down for billboards is the same as the xLODGen brightness dropdown and affects the billboard textures before they are being added to the atlas. It a combination of adding (brightness) and multiplying (contrast) that Zilav originally came up with.

Yes, that's all very clear, thanks. But that still doesn't address my query  Let's see if I can formulate it differently:

To an uneducated outsider reading the DynDOLOD documentation, both TexGen's Direct/Ambient and DynDOLOD Billboard brightness settings have, superficially, the same effects:

• TexGen: "Lower numbers mean less light strength = darker."
• DynDOLOD: "Negative Billboard Brightness values will make the billboard tree LOD darker."

Each use their own method (external illumination of 3D model before rendering vs. transformation of texture pixels), but their result is descriptively and in appearance similar.

In other words, these features/settings seem redundant to an uneducated outsider, which is the source of my confusion. But they must exist and be provided for separate reasons and purposes.

So I'd like you to explain, with your expertise and insight, when should one method be used rather than the other, and why, and whether it makes sense to use both at the same time.

Hope this is clearer this time? Thanks for your attention.

[sheson]

2 hours ago, Mousetick said:

Is there a DynDOLOD configuration setting, like there are in TexGen for Stitched/Rendered textures, to control the size of the generated 3D tree LOD model textures before they're added to the atlas? If not, what is the fixed size?

https://dyndolod.info/Help/Advanced-Mode#Object-LOD
Max tile size LOD sets the maximum resolution a single object LOD texture can occupy on the object LOD texture atlas. Typically set to match the vertical screen resolution, e.g 1024 for 1080p/1440p, 2048 for 2160p etc.
Max tile size full sets the maximum resolution a single full texture can occupy on the object LOD texture atlas. Typically set to 1/4 of the vertical screen resolution, e.g. 256 for 1080p/1440p, 512 for 2160p etc.

2 hours ago, Mousetick said:

To an uneducated outsider reading the DynDOLOD documentation, both TexGen's Direct/Ambient and DynDOLOD Billboard brightness settings have, superficially, the same effects:

• TexGen: "Lower numbers mean less light strength = darker."
• DynDOLOD: "Negative Billboard Brightness values will make the billboard tree LOD darker."

Each use their own method (external illumination of 3D model before rendering vs. transformation of texture pixels), but their result is descriptively and in appearance similar.

In other words, these features/settings seem redundant to an uneducated outsider, which is the source of my confusion. But they must exist and be provided for separate reasons and purposes.

So I'd like you to explain, with your expertise and insight, when should one method be used rather than the other, and why, and whether it makes sense to use both at the same time.

Hope this is clearer this time? Thanks for your attention.

Shining light onto a 3D model that is the rendered to a texture is fundamentally different to changing the RGB values of a texture. The features are explained for anyone to use how they see fit.

Similar results can be achieved if all you want is to make textures bit darker or brighter, however TexGen settings only apply to the textures it generates.

Again, the brightness setting in DynDOLOD is the same as from xLODGen. It exists since years before there was TexGen. It applies to all installed billboards.

[Mousetick]

1 hour ago, sheson said:

https://dyndolod.info/Help/Advanced-Mode#Object-LOD
Max tile size LOD sets the maximum resolution a single object LOD texture can occupy on the object LOD texture atlas. Typically set to match the vertical screen resolution, e.g 1024 for 1080p/1440p, 2048 for 2160p etc.
Max tile size full sets the maximum resolution a single full texture can occupy on the object LOD texture atlas. Typically set to 1/4 of the vertical screen resolution, e.g. 256 for 1080p/1440p, 512 for 2160p etc.

In the case of the downsampled and alpha threshold-adjusted version of treepineforestbranchcomp[snow[l]].dds generated by DynDOLOD for the 3D tree LOD crowns, is this texture considered "a single object LOD texture" or "a single full texture" for adding it to the atlas?

1 hour ago, sheson said:

Similar results can be achieved if all you want is to make textures bit darker or brighter, however TexGen settings only apply to the textures it generates.

Again, the brightness setting in DynDOLOD is the same as from xLODGen. It exists since years before there was TexGen. It applies to all installed billboards.

So my takeaway from all this is that, since 3rd party tree LOD billboards should never be used and tree LOD billboards should always be generated with TexGen, there is no reason to ever use DynDOLOD's brightness setting.

Thanks.

[sheson]

13 minutes ago, Mousetick said:

In the case of the downsampled and alpha threshold-adjusted version of treepineforestbranchcomp[snow[l]].dds generated by DynDOLOD for the 3D tree LOD crowns, is this texture considered "a single object LOD texture" or "a single full texture" for adding it to the atlas?

treepineforestbranchcomp[snow[l]].dds is obviously not a LOD texture since it doesn't have LOD in the filename.

[Mousetick]

10 hours ago, sheson said:

treepineforestbranchcomp[snow[l]].dds is obviously not a LOD texture since it doesn't have LOD in the filename.

Ok. Out of curiosity, I tried Max tile size full = 512 which theoretically is overkill for my vertical resolution (1200). Even though it expectedly resulted in more details in both shape and color in the atlas, it didn't make any perceptible difference in-game (too far to see).

I've increased the alpha threshold up to 224, from the initial 112. This makes the 3D tree LODs almost virtually indistinguishable in-game shape-wise from the full models with regards to skinniness, unless I really focus on them. So I'm pretty happy about the improvement.

I'm now preoccupied with the overall/dominant color of the downscaled treepineforestbranchcomp[snow[l]].dds in the atlas. It seems "off" compared to the full texture, it makes the 3D tree LOD branches look "solid/flat" and "blocky" in-game.

May I ask which resampling algorithm is used to generate the atlas texture?

Comparison: original full 4K | paint.net Bicubic downscale to 256 | DynDOLOD downscale to 256 + alpha filtering

Initially I thought DynDOLOD's version had a "brownish" bias (too much red), but the tints appear to be actually correct. It seems to me the actual issue is that the DynDOLOD version has very little gradation in saturation. Every pixel looks to be max saturated.

RGB Perceptual Histogram: paint.net Bicubic downscale to 256 | DynDOLOD downscale to 256 + alpha filtering

Thanks in advance for your input.