The new mod order in 1.2.5

[Octopuss]

The following changes should prevent these kinds of errors:

• Move Unofficial Skyrim Patch before Dragonborn
• Move Dawnguard before Dragonborn
• Move Unofficial Dawnguard Patch before Dragonborn
• Move HearthFires before Dragonborn
• Move Unofficial Hearthfire Patch before Dragonborn

 

Shall I? Currently my mod order mostly follows the STEP guide (for the fixes section at the least), and this directly conflicts with it.

I don't really understand the new changes, and the long thread where all of that was discussed was beyond what I could understand.

[blattgeist]

 

I didn't even realise until recently that there was a "Skyrim - Invalidation.bsa". So I don't really know. A user mentioned that file recently, I think in this post or another one on this forum, and then came back "Ah MO handles that automatically, no problem." Which was my understanding too.

That user was me. And I read the comments from Tannin regarding invalidation too. But it's not clear enough how to handle the whole matter. From my understanding we either need to hit the button or have the invalidation.bsa in our load order. And afaik a bsa does not count towards your esp limit. So it would not hurt having it there.

 

I just asked this question here because .. well I was wondering if anyone else could shed some light on it.

 

I'm not eager to hit that button every now and then. That's one more task to keep in mind. It's better to check some box to have a permanent solution.

 

Besides.. I don't remember if I checked the box for automatic invalidation when I was asked if I want it to apply in MO.. but I believe that this exact option places the bsa into your load order in the first place.

 

Oh... from initweaks.ini (inside MO profiles):

 

 

[Archive]

bInvalidateOlderFiles=1

I believe that means we don't need to hit that "back-date BSA" button.. just let it be true XD

Edited June 27, 2014 by blattgeist

[TheBloke]

Yeah, it's definitely either/or. And yeah if you'd rather not hit the button, then just tick Automatic Invalidation in your profile, and have the Skyrim - Invalidation.bsa enabled in the mod list and the archives.

 

I don't know where it goes exactly, in terms of order, but I guess where you had it before (early, around the vanilla content) is fine.

 

If you don't know whether you have Automatic Invalidation enabled, just click on Profiles and check settings for the profile(s) you use - the tickbox is there, per-profile.

[blattgeist]

 

If you don't know whether you have Automatic Invalidation enabled, just click on Profiles and check settings for the profile(s) you use - the tickbox is there, per-profile.

 

It was not ticked for me... weird.

 

 

After I ticked it I could not move the invalidation.bsa around anymore. Good.

Edited June 27, 2014 by blattgeist

[TheBloke]

It was not ticked for me... weird.

Oh, yeah that is weird. I thought it was ticking that that added Invalidation.bsa!Ah, I just tested it - I ticked the Automatic Invalidation tickbox, and this immediately added Skyrim - Invalidation.bsa to my Archives tab. Then I unticked it, and Invalidation.bsa was not removed. However the BSA changed from being automatically enabled (cannot disable it), to being an archive I could disable.So I'm thinking that you previously enabled that option in your Profile, giving you the BSA, then you disabled it sometime later. Now you have the optional BSA. I'm guessing that as long as you still have the BSA and have it enabled, that's probably the same effect.To be honest, I think I'll just keep this enabled now. I thought it was going to add a whole new mod list entry as well, that was the clutter I didn't want (though it's hardly a major clutter.) But it didn't add a mod list entry, it just added a new BSA in my Archives tab, alongside all the other "Skyrim - *.bsa" files. That's no bother at all. And I don't have to worry about the ordering of Invalidation.bsa, which was another thing I thought might be hassle, because MO just handles that automatically as part of the Skyrim-*.bsa group of BSAs.So yeah I'll keep this enabled so I don't have to worry about the button.

[blattgeist]

 

So I'm thinking that you previously enabled that option in your Profile, giving you the BSA, then you disabled it sometime later. Now you have the optional BSA. I'm guessing that as long as you still have the BSA and have it enabled, that's probably the same effect.

Yep, exactly my thoughts. It's been so long since I started creating that profile (a year or more). But good that we have that solved. And yes, it's best to keep that bsa around. Archive Invalidation is rather important I read. It has something to do with correct meshes and textures being used or so.

 

Anyway, back to the main topic. No news on the front of 1.2.7? mhm ok then we will wait patiently :)

Edited June 27, 2014 by blattgeist

[TheBloke]

Oh... from initweaks.ini (inside MO profiles): [Archive]bInvalidateOlderFiles=1I believe that means we don't need to hit that "back-date BSA" button.. just let it be true XD

I just noticed that I already have this set in my ini. I don't know when I added that, but quite possibly I did so on the assumption that it resolved invalidation issues, as you said.But surely it can't just fix the issue, can it? If it could, Tannin would just use that and wouldn't have spent time implementing Invalidation.bsa and the Backdate BSAs button on the Workaround profile. So there must be more to it than that. Google doesn't show up much of interest on that keyword, only a few posts from newbie-sounding people.Incidentally, regarding the Backdate BSA button, I am starting to think that maybe that is a one-time thing. I just had a look in Skyrim/Data, and I see that the result of me hitting that button was to set the date on all my vanilla/DLC BSAs with the date 01/01/2000. But it hasn't changed the date of any mod-added BSA (I checked both in their mod directories, and through the virtual filesystem - using BSAOpt as an executable started through MO, which could therefore show me the contents of the VFS.)So I'm now thinking that the only time you have to hit Backdate BSAs is if you change/add BSAs in the /Data directory itself. Which shouldn't ever happen again, really, because they're not going to release new DLCs.Another thing I'm wondering is whether, now that MO handles "Non-MO" mods in /Data, whether that means that Invalidation isn't even needed any more?   Because the Backdate BSAs button only changes the dates on /Data/*.bsa, not on any mod-added BSA.  That seems to make sense to me, because as I mentioned earlier, MO appears to dynamically map BSAs into Skyrim, using a system where Skyrim sees "aaa.bsa", "aab.bsa", "aac.bsa" and so on.  

 

Before MO 1.2.5, MO was only doing that (presumably) for mod-added BSA files. Now, in MO 1.2.5 and later, it does manage those files in /Data as well.

 

So if Skyrim wasn't managing /Data/*.bsa, that might explain why the Backdate BSA button would be needed, as a one time thing to back-date any vanilla/official BSAs you have in /Data. But now MO manages the /Data BSAs as well, I'm wondering if BSA invalidation actually just became a complete non-issue, for all users? Maybe neither Backdate BSAs, nor Skyrim-Invalidation.bsais ever necessary any more, because now MO is mapping every BSA file the games sees - both mod and in /Data - and can therefore set the appropriate dates on every mapped BSA?Maybe if Tannin see this, or DoubleYou or anyone else who knows the inner workings, they could give a definitive answer sometime - am I misunderstanding how the BSA mapping works?  If so, could you explain a little more about how Invalidation works; in particular, why Backdate BSAs needs to update the physical file date on the /Data/*.bsa, but not do the same for mod-added BSAs?Though at least I am now reassured that if invalidation is still a Thing, I now have every possible method of Invalidation enabled: backdated BSAs, profile Archive Invalidation, and even that (probably useless) ini setting :)

Edited June 27, 2014 by TheBloke

[DoubleYou]

Archive Invalidation is something I really don't understand very well, but I was pretty sure we didn't need to mess with it. I know I haven't, and haven't experienced any issues with BSAs.

[TheBloke]

Archive Invalidation is something I really don't understand very well, but I was pretty sure we didn't need to mess with it. I know I haven't, and haven't experienced any issues with BSAs.

 

So have you neither enabled "Archive Invalidation" in your profile, or clicked Backdate BSAs in the Workarounds menu?

 

If so, that was the same position as I was in until today.  But then when I looked into it a bit more, and read an (old) quote from Tannin, it seemed like we did need to do at least one of those things?  Note that, like you, I never noticed any problems either, even though I'd seemingly not enabled any method of AI in my current profile.  Certainly I know for sure that many textures from the base game are being replaced fine by mods, both in loose files and BSAs, and I don't have any missing/purple textures.

 

But, better safe than sorry I guess, so I now have both AI in my profile, and I clicked Back-date BSAs.

 

The tooltip for the "Back-date BSAs" button (on Workarounds settings screen) says:

 

For Skyrim, this can be used instead of Archive Invalidation . It should make AI redundant for all profiles.  For the other games this is not a sufficient replacement for AI.

 

So it seems that even in Skyrim we have to do at least one thing to fix Invalidation - either enable AI per-profile, or click that button.  Maybe you clicked that button on Workarounds once, long ago?  My latest thinking is that we only have to click Back-date BSAs one time, then it works forever (as long as the /Data/*.bsa files don't change.)   Though I am now wondering if MO 1.2.5 made even that unnecessary.

 

Incidentally, @blattgeist - regarding bInvalidateOlderFiles=1  - we don't need to set that in our Skyrim.ini.  I just checked the file profiles/<myprofile>/initweaks.ini, and I see that MO is setting that automatically on a per-profile basis; I assume once you have clicked Archive Invalidation in the profile.   So it seems that that ini setting is important, but MO handles it for us.

Edited June 28, 2014 by TheBloke

[blattgeist]

 

Incidentally, @blattgeist - regarding bInvalidateOlderFiles=1  - we don't need to set that in our Skyrim.ini.  I just checked the file profiles/<myprofile>/initweaks.ini, and I see that MO is setting that automatically on a per-profile basis; I assume once you have clicked Archive Invalidation in the profile.   So it seems that that ini setting is important, but MO handles it for us.

I didn't paste that setting into the ini. It must have gone there when I clicked the invalidation on my profile in earlier times (and then removed that checkmark).

 

But anyway, you're worrying too much   I believe that all is fine with having the BSA set as active and also having that line in the ini, which as you said, MO handles automatically for us.

Edited June 28, 2014 by blattgeist

[TheBloke]

But anyway, you're worrying too much   I believe that all is fine with having the BSA set as active and also having that line in the ini, which as you said, MO handles automatically for us.

Not worrying at all :) I now have every possible method of AI enabled so I'm sure covered :) I do however like to try and understand how everything works and what is and isn't necessary. If for no other reason than to give advice to others.

[DoubleYou]

From the sounds, AI is definitely not needed, but back-dating BSAs may. https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/463386-the-truth-about-skyrims-archiveinvalidation/

 

If back-dating BSAs is necessary, we need to test two scenarios?

1. A BSA with a date older than Skyrim BSAs

2. A loose file with a date older than Skyrim BSAs

 

If I understand the way MO handles BSAs, however, it shouldn't be needed at all if MO handles them. I may be wrong. Might just want to back-date BSAs just in case. Shouldn't be no harm in it.

[DoubleYou]

Ok... I just verified that Back-dating BSAs is absolutely necessary! I was wondering why my Ebony Blade didn't have a scabbard! Updating the MO install page...

[TheBloke]

Awesome, thank you for testing and confirming!

 

So now I need to work out what was missing in my game 

 

Also, having read that link you provided, I am satisfied that the "Back-date BSAs" button is a one-time task.  As long as a user has hit that button once (which physically changes the dates of all his /Data/*.bsa files to 01/01/2000) he never has to hit it again - at least not unless he later adds new vanilla content.  So if a user already has all DLCs, he just presses "Back-date BSAs" once and he's done forever.   The only users who need to take care are any who do not have all DLCs, and then later add some.  They would need to hit the button again, after adding new DLCs to /Data.

 

Is that your understanding as well?

 

What I still don't understand is why it's only required to set the date for vanilla BSAs, and not for mod-added BSAs.  Based on what I've recently read regarding AI, it seems that the Skyrim engine won't load a loose file that overwrites an entry in a BSA, unless that loose file is dated newer than the BSA.  So, for example, if I have ModOne.bsa dated 01/01/2014, but I want one file from that BSA to be overwritten by LooseFileFromAMod.dds, which is dated 01/01/2013 - won't that experience the same problem?

 

However this is mostly just an academic question - I am happy to believe that if it were necessary to re-date all BSAs, including mod-added ones, then Tannin would have implemented that.  So there must be something different about how the game handles vanilla BSAs versus mod-added ones.

 

Thanks again for testing this!

[blattgeist]

Whaaat.. ok *presses the button in hope that his PC does not explode* Good find Double.

By the way did you test that with the skyrim-invalidation.bsa being active in your MO archives tab?

 

*updating my own install instrections for MO*

 

 

Some sort of DOS window popped up for a split second. I guess that's it. Year 2000 here we are.

Edited June 28, 2014 by blattgeist

[Octopuss]

Back dating, invalidation... sounds like klingon to me! Is this something a regular user should bother with? Can anyone give me an explanation what it is? The wiki doesn't cover this at all.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Octopuss