[split] Why do increased spawns cause crashes?

[youtoo]

@rootsrat: its for people who have already played through the game. the destabilizing thing is a hassle. I have to turn off spawn mods and turn back on due to crashing. hoping we can figure out how to get them to work without crashing the game.

 

do you know why spawn mods are prone to crashing the game?

[phazer11]

@rootsrat: its for people who have already played through the game. the destabilizing thing is a hassle. I have to turn off spawn mods and turn back on due to crashing. hoping we can figure out how to get them to work without crashing the game.

 

do you know why spawn mods are prone to crashing the game?

Well for much the same reason that having increased uGridsToLoad values with a large mod list does. The spawn mods add more content that the engine has to load. Once the engine has loaded the extra spawns then whatever mods you have installed (mainly scripted mods) apply themselves not only to the normal amount of spawns from the vanilla game (which is most likely the environment the mod was tested in) but also whatever extra spawns and/or new creature types you have from whatever mods you have installed. The engine is only so robust. The increased strain on the engine in these instances is like having a runner run a marathon at top speed while juggling (they aren't capable of dropping anything) with one hand while say texting on a cell phone. Sure I'm sure it's within the realm of possibility... but only for a certain amount of time, something has to give. In the case of the game what gives is the game engine which causes either a freeze or a crash.

 

However this is a discussion for another section, I'd move it somewhere else if I could.

[MontyMM]

To be fair, we don't really know why increased spawns/scripts/ugrids/etc cause crashes. I suspect that the idea of the engine being overloaded might be somewhat misleading.

 

In one sense, this is probably fair to say; it wasn't crashing with its default scripts and loads - you have added some more - now it crashes - therefore it is overloaded. But it is probably not useful to imagine the engine working flat out, struggling under the load, and being unable to process any more information. The actual CPU demands of the scripts and spawns and so on is very small indeed.

 

I think it is better understood as that the engine suffers from a number of design problems and bugs (particularly around loading and threading), which don't tend to present too many problems with the default game that Bethesda was working with, but which we quickly start to find as we try new and more complicated things.

[Aiyen]

Indeed.. I am starting to suspect that a large part of the issues also come when you cause the various lists the NPC´s are created from to become more and more complex.

 

For some of the overhauls + extras you have some really silly long lists of items and stuff. Also the more you play, the more diverse the lists become with certain mods. Hence it should be expected that there are more and more issues the higher level you become.

Part of the reason why I do not use all those mods that add... 500x extra weapons and armors... and infact I use mods that reduce the lists, since I do not want any of the higher level armors to be used on the most common lists.

 

A common example of this is the crafting tables... if you add enough stuff to it then it will cause a CTD while you scroll the list.

So that it should apply to every other list makes sense in that regard, since the mechanic should be more or less the same game wise.

[Nearox]

MontyMM, if that is the case than Bethesda did a really job pushing the engine to the end of the 'safe limits' (at least with the last fww big skyrim patches it got really stable in vanilla environment). I mean if we can basically only add a couple more spawns/scripts and then the engine already goes ctd/freeze... Well props has to be given to them for staying about right under that instability limit :P

[MontyMM]

I do agree that the final build of vanilla is very stable, at least on my machine (though it still contains far too many gameplay bugs to have been declared final, IMO.) What I'm harping on about, is getting away from the notion of a 'limit', in the sense of a linear load that must not be exceeded.

 

Bethesda, working with sole task of making the vanilla game stable, most likely encountered all sorts of engine issues with scripts, threads, etc. They had the advantage of access to the code and powerful debugging tools to assess where the engine was misbehaving in each case, and either fix it or work around it. As we complicate things with our mods, we just don't have the tools and information to root out these problems. The more we add, the greater the probability that we'll encounter some of these problems, but that is not quite the same thing as the problem itself being a question of overall load.

[Sairven]

I was reading something a few modders (Arthmoor and some others) were talking about the other day.

 

They mentioned that these issues are actually recent as of patch 1.9. Which kinda makes sense to me because I've used ASIS (and PISE before it) for the longest and didn't experience anywhere near this amount of CTDs/Freezes until after 1.9 came out. It's not just the 3.1 GB VRAM limit, it's a whole bunch of other things (most likely linked to that).

 

At this point it's likely up to the USKP series team to fix because I highly doubt Bethesda will be touching Skyrim again anytime soon. Maybe they'll do a 2-year aniversary patch or something in November though (hahahaha that was a good joke wasn't it?). Maybe they consider this 3.1 GB VRAM limit one of those "funny bugs that should be left in the game."

 

 

I mean, I've been into modding Skyrim since December 2011 and have noticed this stuff despite being fairly oblivious in nature. I find it hard to believe STEP peoples haven't noticed it as well. It's definitely not an issue that has existed since release. ASIS has been script heavy since PISE and I've always used more than 5 script heavy mods.

 

I don't even know where I was going with this. Lets call this post a rant.

[Neovalen]

I will also agree that 1.8 was much more stable than 1.9 has been. Not to mention the lip sync bug.

[MontyMM]

The "3.1 GB" problem isn't a bug though, and wasn't introduced with 1.9. 1.9 does seem to have introduced some nasty problems of its own, but I do find it to be very stable without mods.

[Sairven]

I will also agree that 1.8 was much more stable than 1.9 has been. Not to mention the lip sync bug.

Oh god that lip sync bug.

 

 

Also, to STEP mods: This topic should be tagged: [un-Solved Mysteries]

[Sairven]

The "3.1 GB" problem isn't a bug though and wasn't introduced with 1.9. 1.9 does seem to have introduced some nasty problems of its own, but I do find it to be very stable without mods.

I'm horrible with terminology so "3.1 GB VRAM limit" is most likely the wrong choice of words. What I meant is that it is caused by a bug (or most likely a fix Bethesda implemented, which inadvertently caused bugs to happen which is quite common with bug stomping AKA fixes).

 

In any case I have to fall back on my other statement: We'll have to hope the USKP series team finds a way to un-**** the problem.

 

Also, I'm not the one to argue with over this. Feel free to look at mod pages for Arthmoor on the Nexus or the USKP thread(s) on the official forums. Arthmoor and others are more detailed in their passive-agressive jabs at Bethesda.

[MontyMM]

No, I'm not looking to argue with anyone. I just want people to be clear that the 3.1Gb thing is the result of the 32bit limit of Skyrim, and nothing to do with a particular patch or bug. It's a limit that will not change, unless ENBboost is used to circumvent it.

 

1.9 introduced other problems, and particularly pissed off Arthmoor.

[Sairven]

No, I'm not looking to argue with anyone. I just want people to be clear that the 3.1Gb thing is the result of the 32bit limit of Skyrim, and nothing to do with a particular patch or bug. It's a limit that will not change, unless ENBboost is used to circumvent it.

 

1.9 introduced other problems, and particularly pissed off Arthmoor.

Good point. Arthmoor does tend to get pissed off about Skyrim (even moreso with the whole Open Cities thing).

[Aiyen]

I recall having more issues with memory before patch 1.9. In fact I had a particular one outside of whiterun with the giant that went away with the only change being the difference between 1.9 and 1.8.

 

Then again I have never been overly bothered by the lip sync bug, and I could care less for open cities. I would not even be bothered if each hold was its own separate world space, if that would improve the amount of stuff that could be put into each without issues.

 

Atm then horrible LOD´s is more a concern then anything imo. Sadly that cant be improved much due to the before mentioned threading and data loading issues.