Puddles in Windhelm

[rootsrat]

The quality of water puddles on the ground in Windhelm market is terrible. They are very pixelated and look very bad. Has anyone else experienced that? The only texture mods I use are STEP 2.2.1 ones. I am at work now so unable to produce screenshots, but I'll post them later on when I'm back home. They DO look bad though, to the point, that if someone else had the same problem, they would know definitely what I'm talking about.

[EssArrBee]

OK, a short update to this thread as it is still an issue:

Brumbek said he will look into this! :)

 

Also I found out, that after optimizing the vanilla textures with ddsopt the ice puddles look even worse and there is a horrendous texture seam around them!

Which ice puddle textures?

I believe the offending texture is actually a normal map->textures->architecture->windhelm->whroughgroundwet_n.dds

 

This is included in WATER and it looks good to me, but I wouldn't run DDSopt over any of sparrow p's work, unless converting the format of his normals from DXT to whatever is recommended by ethatron.

[torminater]

Uggggh... It has nothing to do with this file... If you don't mind, Read all the info Ive gathered so far

[Kelmych]

The screenshot that was on the Terrain Bump page (before it disappeared from Nexus) shows the Windhelm puddle looking the way it should. I've never been able to make it look like that screenshot even when using Terrain Bump.

[torminater]

hey guys. New feedback from Brumbek:

 

There is no logic to this. It appears to be a hard-coded engine error or something. I've tested nearly everything I can think of for over an hour. There should NOT even be puddles anywhere on the WHmarket01.nif.

 

 

 

As you note, if you disable the mesh then reenable in game, the puddles disappear. Will do some more testing...

 

Hopefully there is a fix to this...

[torminater]

Unfortunately this is Brumbek's conclusion on this matter:

Actually, I spoke with Arthmoor. He informed me the puddles are decals. So yeah...the puddles use textures\puddle\decalpuddles.dds. I made my own high-res version but in-game it is still terribly pixelated. I think the decals in the engine just really stink for some reason. Other users have asked me to fix the Giant markings on rocks, which I see are also decals. The base textures of those are pretty good really, but in-game they are hideous.

 

Decals usually would scale to whatever UV scale they are placed on. But this doesn't work in Skryim it seems...so wacky. For now I guess I give up, maybe some CK setting could help but maybe not.

 

The decals in question are named "DecalPuddles", just search the CK for that.

[PCG4m3r]

hey guys. New feedback from Brumbek:

 

There is no logic to this. It appears to be a hard-coded engine error or something. I've tested nearly everything I can think of for over an hour. There should NOT even be puddles anywhere on the WHmarket01.nif.

 

 

 

As you note, if you disable the mesh then reenable in game, the puddles disappear. Will do some more testing...

Hopefully there is a fix to this...

There is a FIX guys!! :)

 

I didn't even know about those puddles until I read this thread and after seeing them for myself I had to figure out how to get rid of them because they definitely looked terrible! I searched through every property in the mesh file but couldn't find the problem. It turns out, the only way to fix this is in the CK. And this was also my very first time creating a plugin in the CK, so I'm proud of myself for figuring it out!

 

Here's what I did to fix:

EDIT: Updated steps based on torminater's tip below (NEVER Delete in the CK). Thanks torminater!

 

 

1. Open CK

2. Double-click Skyrim.esm and also double-click Update.esm

3. Click OK

4. Click Yes to all when Warnings come up

5. Click File, Save and it should default to your \Skyrim\Data folder

6. Create a plugin name, such as "WindhelmPuddlesBeGone" :P

7. In the "Cell View" window click the "World Space" dropdown and choose "WindhelmWorld"

8. Below that input X=32 and Y=8

 

NOTE: The clue for the X,Y coordinates came from the Form ID torminater provided (52585). When you filter on that FormID in TES5Edit, there is a Cell reference right above the the Record Header (i.e. "in WindhelmWorld "Windhelm" [WRLD:0001691D] at 32,8").

 

9. After inputting X,Y coordinates, click Go

10. Click Yes to all again when Warnings come up (there will be a few)

11. Now in the Objects box furthest to the right at the top, type "puddle" without quotes

12. Immediately you should see 3 objects called "DecalPuddlesMedium"

13. Double-click one of the objects Render window should center on the object

14. Make sure the object in question is selected first in the Render window

15. While the Render window is active press the "e" key on your keyboard to go into Translate mode

16. I translated each puddle decal down (z axis) below the visible surface to hide them from view

17. After it is hidden, right-click the object in the Cell View window and choose Edit

18. Check the box "Initially Disabled" and also uncheck "Respawns"

19. Repeat steps 14-18 for the other two decals to be hidden/disabled

20. Remove "puddle" text from the Objects filter

21. In the left pane scroll all the way down and locate EditorID "WindhelMarketplaceExterior"

22. Double-click it

23. Input "puddle" again into the Objects filter

24. Repeat steps 14-18 for the remaining DecalPuddle*

25. File, Save to commit the changes to your plugin file

 

To quickly test:

21. Load up Skyrim Launcher

22. Select Data Files

23. Make sure your new plugin is selected (assuming you saved it in the \Skyrim\Data folder in step 5)

24. Go into the game and now the puddles should be completed gone in the Market area!!  

 

 

EDIT: I checked the results of the ESP in TES5Edit and by doing it this way, with no other changes, it looked clean. I know very little about using the CK beyond this, so I don't know if there's a better way to do this type of edit, but I tested it out in-game and all I know is the "WindhelmPuddlesBeGone"!!! 

 

 

Now if only we had some quality textures surrounding the other icy puddles throughout Windhelm! I spent a lot of time looking in NifSkope and comparing textures, editing them in Photoshop, trying different combinations from a few mods to try and get the best result. These are the primary textures that seem to affect the quality of the puddles.

 

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHroughgroundmud.dds

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHroughgroundwet_n.dds

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHstreetstone01.dds

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHstreetstone01_n.dds

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHstreetstone01_m.dds

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHextrawet_m.dds

textures\cubemaps\QuickSkyDark_e.dds

 

I compared SRO, Skyrim HD2K, Vanilla/HRDLC, and Langley's Wood/Metal. The last 2 files are only available in the Vanilla Skyrim textures and the cubemap is very small and pixelated, which contributes to some of the problem we see.

 

It does seem that SRO gives the best result all around, but the 3 WHstreetstone* textures from SRO just look like they were upscaled versions of Vanilla or HRDLC2 textures, so are are blurry when viewed up close and still retain the qualities that show bad pixellation in-game. Look close at WHstreetstone01_m.dds and I think that one is part of the problem along with the pixelated cubemap. Still, I'll take SRO over vanilla any day! 

 

I did some tweaks to a couple SRO files to try and improve the looks and the results from in-game are posted here (showing Vanilla, SRO original, and SRO TWEAKED textures):

https://imgur.com/a/q4Pkd#5

 

NOTE: Those are 2560x1600 res images, so will be best viewed when opening in separate tabs and navigating back and forth to see the comparisons. There were no other mods, except for the 5 texture files in yellow above, with the exception of the first image in each group, which is pure Vanilla.

 

Here's what files I edited and how to get those TWEAKED results for the 3rd image in each group in case anyone is interested:

 

1. Used SRO for all yellow textures above (as mentioned)

2. Used the NVidia DDS Viewer Plugin for Photoshop to open/save as DDS

3. In Photoshop I opened SRO's whstreetstone01_m.dds and performed a basic >Filter >Blur >Blur 3 times, then saved it as a DDS color map file with DXT5/interpolated alpha and "Generate MIP maps" on 

4. Also in Photoshop, I opened SRO's WHstreetstone01.dds and did the following:

• Immediately chose File, Save As using the NVidia DDS file type option
• Under Normal Map, chose "Convert to Tangent Space Normal Map" with these options:
  • Checked Invert Y
  • 7 x 7 sample
  • Min Z=0, Scale=8
  • Alpha Field=Height
  • Alternate Conversions= Colorspace
• Under Image Options, set Compression Quality to "Highest"
• Generate MIP maps on
• DXT5/interpolated alpha

I've never really messed with DDS textures other than installing them with mods, so I don't know if the choices I made are even good ones, but I think the results look better and certainly not as pixelated in-game. It was more of an experiment for me to see what I could learn and figure out, but hope someone else finds it useful.

 

I also haven't tried running DDSopt against those tweaked files yet, but I probably will at some point.

[torminater]

Ok, thanks for your input on this :-)

1. You never, never never never NEVER delete anything in the CK. Disable those references instead please. Then you can verify it still works in game and upload your esp to the nexus where it might very well be incorporated into step :-)

[PCG4m3r]

Good to know. Thanks torminater!

 

I definitely have much to learn with regard to the CK. I tried it again and instead of deleting this time I chose to edit each and checked a box called "Initially Disabled". In addition, I deselected the box "Respawns" (it was checked), since we don't want these to respawn. The only problem is I still see two puddles in-game by doing it this way. I'm not sure if a Vanilla script is somehow setting them to enabled again, but I confirmed all 4 objects are still set to "Initially Disabled" when I go back and look at the ESP in the CK.

 

I did notice another option under an "Enable Parent" tab for each object called "Set Enable State to Opposite of Parent" but I don't know what that does exactly and I'm hesitant to make other changes without knowing what I'm doing. That Enable Parent box is checked for the 3 medium puddles, but it's not checked for the large one.

 

Any suggestions?

[torminater]

look here: https://www.creationkit.com/ :D

[Brumbek]

Hello friends, finally joined STEP forums. Brumbek here. I made a mod called SMIM, perhaps you've heard of it??? ;)

 

There is a FIX guys!! :)

I salute you for finding this. I missed the decals on my first look. Arthmoor the genius had to help me.

 

Well...deleting the puddles obviously is one method...but that isn't what the developers intended, since you lose the puddles entirely.The true fix for this would be to create a new proper puddle .nif that uses the proper puddle textures you mentioned in yellow. Then insert the new puddles and disable the old ones. That is the true solution. This could be done by modifying the waterpuddle01.nif mesh.I may attempt this at a later date...replacing all terrible decal puddles with proper puddles...perhaps even the USKP would include this fix then, although they may deem it beyond the scope of the USKP.

 

I will update this thread if I do take the time to replace all the puddles. For now, though, the decal puddles remain a mystery to me. Perhaps only the developers would know if decal puddles can be improved.

[torminater]

Great to see you here, Brumbek! Send a PM to Farlo on the nexus and he'll provide you with your well-earned "Mod Author"-tag ;-)

 

Good idea, by the way. Everywhere in windhelm there are ice puddles, so why shouldn't there be any on the market? Are all the other ice puddles in windhelm real meshes and textures or are they decals?

[PCG4m3r]

Hello friends' date=' finally joined STEP forums. Brumbek here. I made a mod called SMIM, perhaps you've heard of it??? ;)

 

There is a FIX guys!! :)

I salute you for finding this. I missed the decals on my first look. Arthmoor the genius had to help me.

 

Well...deleting the puddles obviously is one method...but that isn't what the developers intended, since you lose the puddles entirely.The true fix for this would be to create a new proper puddle .nif that uses the proper puddle textures you mentioned in yellow. Then insert the new puddles and disable the old ones. That is the true solution. This could be done by modifying the waterpuddle01.nif mesh.I may attempt this at a later date...replacing all terrible decal puddles with proper puddles...perhaps even the USKP would include this fix then, although they may deem it beyond the scope of the USKP.

 

I will update this thread if I do take the time to replace all the puddles. For now, though, the decal puddles remain a mystery to me. Perhaps only the developers would know if decal puddles can be improved.

Welcome Brumbek! I think I speak for most, if not all on the forum, that your SMIM mod is one of the best and an absolute essential mod to make Skyrim look better! Thank you so much for all your hard work. :)

 

I appreciate the feedback and would love to see things like this in Windhelm fixed by your mod, if possible.

 

Based on what I've been able to tell from the CK, these are the files related to the decals. They are low-res 512x512 DDS files with 4 different puddle shapes in the same image file and are blurry, so it's no wonder they look terrible.

 

\textures\Puddle\DecalPuddles.dds

\textures\Puddle\DecalPuddles_n.dds

\textures\Puddle\DecalPuddles_m.dds

\textures\Cubemaps\QuickSkyDark_e.dds

 

I don't see any reference in the CK to a NIF file that calls those DDS files. It might be that these are more like "stickers" for lack of better term, that just get placed on top of surfaces anywhere Bethesda or a modder decides to put them. I don't know enough about the CK to dig further though. I guess they could be improved if someone made a higher res version of those files, but I'm not sure if that would be good enough. 

 

What I ended up doing was just hid those decals below the surface and set them to disabled. So they are still available and if a Bethesda script happens to enable any of them, they will still be hidden. I also made sure to keep them within the same cell location so to prevent any possible errors. Now the 4 market puddles are gone (confirmed in-game).

 

I may post a mod on the Nexus later (my first mod! :)) per torminater's suggestion. If these ever get fixed by SMIM or USKP, I'll remove the mod.

[PCG4m3r]

Great to see you here, Brumbek! Send a PM to Farlo on the nexus and he'll provide you with your well-earned "Mod Author"-tag ;-)

 

Good idea, by the way. Everywhere in windhelm there are ice puddles, so why shouldn't there be any on the market? Are all the other ice puddles in windhelm real meshes and textures or are they decals?

Some of the other areas, like the ground surface below Candlehearth Hall have the puddle textures tied to the mesh. A good example of this is the following:

 

meshes\architecture\windhelm\whlandfront2.nif

 

That NIF is covered with these DDS files:

 

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHstreetstone01.dds

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHstreetstone01_n.dds

textures\cubemaps\QuickSkyDark_e.dds

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHstreetstone01_m.dds

 

and then another layer over top those above with these DDS files, which are the puddles you see elsewhere:

 

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHroughgroundmud.dds

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHroughgroundwet_n.dds

textures\cubemaps\QuickSkyDark_e.dds

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHextrawet_m.dds

 

The Market area (i.e. whmarket01.nif) only has these DDS files tied to the mesh:

 

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHroughground.dds

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHroughground_n.dds

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHstreetstone01.dds

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHstreetstone01_n.dds

textures\cubemaps\QuickSkyDark_e.dds

textures\architecture\windhelm\WHstreetstone01_m.dds

 

and the decals were applied over them:

 

\textures\Puddle\DecalPuddles.dds

\textures\Puddle\DecalPuddles_n.dds

\textures\Puddle\DecalPuddles_m.dds

\textures\Cubemaps\QuickSkyDark_e.dds

 

 

I could be wrong, but to apply the more common puddles in the Market area I believe would just require editing the whmarket01.nif and applying those DDS files in orange over top, essentially tying them to the mesh. Unfortunately I don't know how to edit UVs or meshes, otherwise I would give it a shot. 

[PCG4m3r]

Ok, thanks for your input on this :-)

1. You never, never never never NEVER delete anything in the CK. Disable those references instead please. Then you can verify it still works in game and upload your esp to the nexus where it might very well be incorporated into step :-)

Forgot to mention, I posted my mod the other day. :)

https://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/33129

 

Also, I've been working on trying to improve the textures myself, just to see if I can figure it out. Here's what I've managed to do so far. It's an improvement compared to vanilla, but a bit too shiny and needs a lot of tweaking. This is new for me, so I'm having to learn as I go, but hopefully will be worth it if I can do it right!

 

Ugly Vanilla:

 

My improved textures:

 

[Neovalen]

So far so good, look forward to seeing more results.