Preserve "Install Order" vs "Mod Order"?

[Geheiligt]

Hi all, this is kind of an obscure question... Is there any way to preserve the Install Order while changing the Mod Order to reduce conflicts?

 

Probably worded that incorrectly... Basically I have installed SR:LE completely, and have each mod categorized under "empty mods". That is, I created extra folders within MOMods such as "-----Recipe and Stat Changes-----" as a header to mirror SR:LE's wiki, with respective mods installed in order underneath.

 

Regardless, MO 1.2.9 suggests the below changes.

 

 

 

Move Cutting Room Floor after DSAMG - Dragon Soul Absorb More Glorious

Move Traps Make Noise - More Dangerous Traps after Cutting Room Floor

Move Wiseman303's Trap Fixes after Traps Make Noise - More Dangerous Traps

Move Complete Crafting Overhaul Remade after Wiseman303's Trap Fixes

Move When Vampires Attack after Complete Crafting Overhaul Remade

Move The Paarthurnax Dilemma after When Vampires Attack

Move Enhanced Blood Textures after The Paarthurnax Dilemma

Move aMidianBorn Book of Silence after Enhanced Blood Textures

Move Better Fast Travel - Carriages and Ships - Overhauled after aMidianBorn Book of Silence

Move Provincial Courier Service after Better Fast Travel - Carriages and Ships - Overhauled

Move Alternate Start - Live Another Life after Provincial Courier Service

 

If not, I assume I should go ahead and simply allow the above reordering?

 

Thank you!

Edited July 2, 2014 by Geheiligt

[Lauren]

I follow (mostly) SRLE myself and I also get the same warnings. People have brought it up before I believe in the main SR thread*, and Neo said to ignore it as everything has been tested as working fine. I've re-ordered them before, and currently they're not re-ordered as I'm redoing my setup, but I haven't actually really played the game so no effect to report either way.

 

Also, SRLE still uses BOSS. The PMOP is solved by moving the mods in the left pane around, it's not really the plugin (esp) load list? There are no special instructions for the BOSS ordering of most of those mods, as they've been around awhile and are on the BOSS masterlist.

 

*found it: OP - https://forum.step-project.com/topic/1209-skyrim-revisited-pre-release-feedback/page-241?do=findComment&comment=87368

TL;DR from Neo:

 

Posted 24 June 2014 - 01:01 PM

Echoing what DC said, while the messages should be looked at and heeded they are not always correct. Rest assured that SR:LE has been fully checked for load ordering issues.

 

Edited July 2, 2014 by Lauren

[TheBloke]

You must always re-order your mods such that the Potential Mod Order Problem (PMOP) disappears.

 

But I'm surprised that you're getting a whole bunch of PMOP warnings if you've followed the SRLE guide and ordered the mods in the order that SRLE describes.

 

If you do have your mods ordered in the same order as SRLE, then I think Neovalen should comment as to why you're still getting these PMOP warnings.  I'm certain his ordering will be designed to ensure no such warnings, so I'm wondering if something's gone wrong somewhere.

 

Your empty "category mod" headings should't make any difference - if they're empty mods, they should have no effect on anything else.  

 

PMOP warnings happen when you've put your plugins in an order that's incompatible with the order of your mod list.  So are your plugins ordered correctly?  Have you followed all of SRLE's advice regarding ordering your plugins?  

 

I don't know whether SRLE uses BOSS or LOOT (it will definitely use one of those.)  If it uses BOSS, it might be suggesting that you apply Boss User Manager rules, such as "PluginX  AFTER PluginY".  In that case, you can either use BUM and BOSS, or you can convert those rules into LOOT metadata using an external installation of LOOT (MO's internal LOOT - the Sort button - doesn't allow you to add metadata.)

 

But either way, you need to ensure that your plugins are ordered exactly as SRLE suggests.  If you've done that, and your mods are ordered as SRLE suggests, then I really think you shouldn't be getting these warnings, so maybe you've not done one or the other?

[TheBloke]

I follow (mostly) SRLE myself and I also get the same warnings. And yes I absolutely follow the install order Neo has laid out. People have brought it up before I believe in the main SR thread, and he said to ignore it as everything has been tested as working fine. I've re-ordered them before, and currently they're not re-ordered as I'm redoing my setup, but I haven't actually really played the game. So, can't comment on what you should do, but can confirm this happens.

Ah, ok. Well I guess if Neovalen has tested it ultra thoroughly, then there may be cases where PMOP fires in situations which won't actually affect the game. The general advice though is to never ignore it, because it can definitely cause major problems. Tannin has said that specifically a number of times - in particular in response to some people who were posting on Nexus, for example, that "it's OK to ignore that warning."

 

I never ignore it. But I have often thought that some of the listed problems don't seem to me to be that likely to cause problems, so I could believe that there might be specific errors that are OK to ignore, if one tests it very carefully; as I'm sure Neovalen has done.

 

But are there important reasons why those mods need to be in the order defined, contravening PMOP? In other words, if they were re-ordered to remove PMOP errors, would that break the asset priorities that SRLE requires?

 

If so, then fair enough. But if not then I would definitely obey the PMOP instructions if at all possible. In other words, I'd want there to be a major known problem caused by disobeying PMOP before I'd think it worth the risk. If there are asset conflicts, I might think about using the Hide File feature so that I could re-arrange the mods the way PMOP wants, while maintaining the asset load ordering required for best effects.

 

Note that I've never studied SRLE in detail, and I'm sure it has been fully tested and works fine in the way it's described. Just as a general point, it's important to mention not to ignore PMOP unless there's no alternative, and one is absolutely sure there's no problems and has tested that very thoroughly.

 

 

Also, SRLE still uses BOSS. The PMOP is solved by moving the mods in the left pane around, it's not really the plugin (esp) load list? There are no special instructions for the BOSS ordering of most of those mods, as they've been around awhile and are on the BOSS masterlist.

It's both. The PMOP order compares the load order of plugins provided by mods, to the order of those same mods in the mod list.

 

So let's say you have two mods, When Vampires Attack and Complete Crafting Overhaul Remade.

 

Your plugin order is:

• Complete Crafting Overhaul Remade.esp
• When Vampires Attack.esp

But your mod list is:

• When Vampires Attack
• Complete Crafting Overhaul Remade

In that scenario, you will probably get the PMOP warning: "move When Vampires Attack after Complete Crafting Overhaul Remade"

 

There's then two ways to fix that. Either do what it says, and move When Vampires Attack in the modlist, to be after CCOR. Or you could re-order the plugins, so that the CCOR.esp is before Vampires.esp in the load order.

 

You're right that usually the fix for PMOP is to move the mod in the modlist. That's because usually Plugin load order has been set carefully by BOSS, LOOT, and/or by studying mod author recommendations. So usually you know the Plugin order is fine, and it's the mod list ordering that's wrong; so you change the latter.

 

But to be precise, it's the mismatch between the two that's the problem, not (necssarily) one or other specifically. In the case of this thread, I didn't expect that SRLE would have those errors, and given the OP said he had his mods in the correct order in the modlist, I thought he might not have completed the step of putting plugins in the right order.

 

This is a situation unique to MO. Skyrim vanilla, and therefore every other mod manager, does not allow control of how BSA and loose files are loaded. Outside of MO, SomeMod.bsa is loaded in the same position as SomeMod.esp. Therefore by definition, for mods containing BSAs, Plugin Order = Asset load order. Then any loose files, regardless of which mods they come from, all load at the end after all BSAs.

 

MO replaces that with proper changeable mod ordering, which is far superior. But a downside can be that it allows users to place their mod assets (loose or BSA) in a different order than than their Plugins. When scripts are used, that's considered to be a major risk factor, hence PMOP warnings.

[TheBloke]

*found it: OP - https://forum.step-project.com/topic/1209-skyrim-revisited-pre-release-feedback/page-241?do=findComment&comment=87368TL;DR from Neo: 

Echoing what DC said, while the messages should be looked at and heeded they are not always correct. Rest assured that SR:LE has been fully checked for load ordering issues.

 

I just saw the edit. OK so yeah these specific PMOPs can be ignored, fair enough.I do still wonder though whether there's a way to re-order SRLE that both provides the required ordering, and removes the PMOPs.In the case of guides I'd worry that if a guide results in PMOP errors - even when no actual game problems result - it might convey the impression to users that PMOP can be ignored, which it definitely should not be as a general rule.And also, having no such errors gives users a clean state to start from such that if they then add further, unsupported mods, they know when those new mods have added new ordering issues and are able to fix those in isolation. If they're already used to a big list of PMOP errors, they might not even notice when a newly-added mod has introduced further PMOPs, which might be ones that they must not ignore. Even if they do notice, it will be much less clear how to resolve the new errors, as the errors will likely be intertwined with the pre-existing errors from the guide.Perhaps that's the biggest issue - even when they understand that it's only this specific set of errors that has been tested as being OK, they're still left in a position where they have a large set of errors to disregard, and as soon as they start adding different mods, it becomes very hard to track which ones are tested as OK, and which ones are new and definitely not OK.As I say, I've not studied SRLE and I have no doubt there's good reasons for all the mod order positions. But I do wonder if it's possible to preserve the desired asset ordering while removing the PMOP errors. Perhaps using Hide File (I see from that SRLE thread that Lauren linked that it advises extracting all BSAs) to allow certain files to take priority over others, contrary to their mod list positioning.As a user, I'd certainly rather do a little extra work manually hiding files if it meant I could start with 0 PMOP errors, therefore having a clean base to add further mods without risk of confusion.

[Geheiligt]

But I do wonder if it's possible to preserve the desired asset ordering while removing the PMOP errors. 

This was primarily my main concern. I do indeed plan on adding a few mods here and there and would love to start with a solid foundation.

 

Thanks all for the replies! I suppose for now I will leave those errors be.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Geheiligt