Does Mod Organizer gives false information about potential mod order problem

[Culted]

when using mod organizer with requiem ( and some other script heavy mods) mod organizer gives a potential mod order problem depending on where requiem is placed i attached a screenshot to show you what i mean

 

the problem is placing the mods how mod organizer think's it should be breaks the some of the scripts from requiem

 

when i started using mod organizer i was wondering why requiem act's wierd

 

now i placed requiem at the bottom and it work's

 

this is only a small problem but i think it's worth mentioning it

 

maybe the mod organizer dev team could have a look at this and work something out

 

 

sorry if my english is bad

Edited May 8, 2014 by DoubleYou

[wolverine2710]

Afaik the algorithms used for this feature are not flawless. Especially circular references (can't describe it better in a concise way) don't seem to work that well. It has been discussed before in this forum a few times. A little search would find them.  Iirc the concensus is that most of the time it does not really matter at all, at least that is what I made of it. But as you pointed out, it does matter in your case. 

 

Afaik so far nobody has looked into the code to see if/how it could be improved. The dev team really is ONE person (Tannin). To be honest I was bothered by it as well but I currently am just ignoring the message and in the last 4-5 weeks my skyrim works without a hitch.

 

Getting the MO organizer code to compile is not trivial as I found out in the past because the documentation how to do it was a bit outdated (then, unknown now). But with help from Tannin I got it to work. Wanted to change the NMM importer but RL interfered. An alternative to compile and change the code one self perhaps ppl with the  right knowledge could have a look at the code and check the algorithm used (his code is very clean and understandable) and figure out what could be done to perfect the algorithm and why it is not flawless atm. Perhaps Tannin can use this feedback to improve the algoirthm (if possible at all). I don't have great hopes that someone is willing to do this but still wanted to point out the possibility. Just my 2 euro cent.

[Tannin]

The algorithm is very simple: If scripts from two mods conflict the scripts should be loaded in the same order as the corresponding esps.

There is no potential for cirular dependencies here.

 

The order is very very likely the safest because If the scripts were bundled in a bsa (which is what Bethesda intended) and you were not using MO then scripts would be loaded in this order anyway (with no way to customize).

 

To my knowledge the algorithm (at least up to 1.2.0) is perfect in that it never suggests an order that differs from the esp order. The only margin for error is if a mod contains multiple esps and they aren't loaded in one block.

It does suggest moves that aren't necessary but won't hurt either (false positives).

 

In 1.2.1 the algorithm hopefully doesn't report false positives anymore but since that is the newest version it may contain new bugs.

[keithinhanoi]

The algorithm is very simple: If scripts from two mods conflict the scripts should be loaded in the same order as the corresponding esps.

There is no potential for cirular dependencies here.

 

Tannin - just to double check here. The algorithm is based on the current plugin load order, correct?

 

So if for some reason I sorted plugins using BOSS, and then sorted using LOOT (externally or built-in), if the load order from each was different (a reasonable expectation,) then the Potential Mod order warning list would be different too - right?

[Tannin]

Tannin - just to double check here. The algorithm is based on the current plugin load order, correct?

 

So if for some reason I sorted plugins using BOSS, and then sorted using LOOT (externally or built-in), if the load order from each was different (a reasonable expectation,) then the Potential Mod order warning list would be different too - right?

 

Correct.

[wolverine2710]

Tannin, thanks for correcting me. My post was based upon threads here and what I recall was the consensus. Guess I was wrong. As suggested in 1.2.1 I gave myself a good slapping, felt good..... It good that this thread was made and you stating what needs to be done.

 

I've finally got rid of the warning. I now have 13 mods changed from position but there is something I can't explain. It could be an issue or intended.

 

Yesterday I tried to get the warnings disappear but whatever I did I still got warnings. Gordian knot. Drove me mad so this morning I decided to disable all thirteen mods and enabled them one by one and changed the install order in the left pane. In the end I succeeded but I also came across something which I can't explain and is perhaps the reason I could not get it sorted out yesterday.

 

I have all thirteen mods enabled. I disable them in one go by selecting them all and hitting space. Of course no warning. I enable them all again by selecting them all and hitting space. Again no warning. I disable 'Run For Your Lives -- IO changed' (IO is install order) and no warning. When I however enable it again MO gives me a warning.

"Move Run For Your Lives -- IO changed after The Choice is Yours - Dawnguard -- IO changed". The last mod is last in the install order (of the thirteen mods). Resfreshing and/or restarting MO does not work. I can get it to work by deselecting all 13 mods and enabling them again (in one go or one by one). I can reproduce this every time on my system.

 

When trying to figure out what was going on I discovered something similar. I disabled "The Choice is Yours - Dawnguard -- IO changed" to get rid of the warning. The warning did NOT go away. The warning no says: "Move Run For Your Lives -- IO changed after Non-Essential Children -- Hearthfire edition -- IO changed". Non essential children is actually right above "Choice is Yours - Dawnguard -- IO changed" in the left pane. I know disabled "Non essential children" and was getting a new warning. I hoped it was the mod which was above "non essential children" because it would mean there was a pattern. But it was not the case. The mod mentioned in the warning was indeed below "run for your lives" but not directly above "non essential children". At this point I gave up. I disabled all 13 mods and enabled them again and now the warning is gone.

 

I've noticed other things as well but I try to keep this post (relative) short. I'm getting a deja vu feeling (NMM importer).

 

Questions:

• Do you have any idea what could cause the behavior I noticed.
• Does somebody has noticed something similar ?
• You stated the algorithm checks scripts and esp files. Some mods which I had to rearrange do beside scripts have textures and hkx files also. Which means Skyrim could/can look/behave differently. I think (if I understand the VFS correctly) the following is possible but I would like to double check it. I move the scripts directory from mod X and move them to mod "X scripts only". I do this for the rest of the mods (Y Z etc if needed). The X Y Z mods retain there normal install order. I then place the ". scripts only" mods in the correct order.

I hope you can answer my questions. I can supply you with more info if needed. I'm using LOOT (kickstarted by MO).

[Tannin]

As I said: If this is 1.2.1 I'm not surprised if there are new bugs. This is a beta after all. In this case please create an issue report. one for each thing you noticed.

 

If it's an older version I don't really care because, as I said the algorithm changed and I won't fix the old one.

[wolverine2710]

I have this tendency to notice things right before I go away. Starting tomorrow morning I will be on a small holiday (again) till sunday the 18th of May. After that I will create bug reports for the things I noticed. I'm gonna make a new profile and try to make a minimal but reproducible set of mods. Its time I do some testing again instead of selfishly playing Skyrim ;-) I haven't forgotten how to create bug reports and its far to silent in my torture testing dungeon lately....  Note: I was testing with 1.2.1.

 

It seems you have missed question number 3, perhaps you can answer it.

[Razorsedge877]

I'm having the same problem as you Wolverine and this script order program is all over the place. I spent an hour last night trying to get my mods ordered right had it down to put amidian born content add on after thieves guild requirements  which I can not do because than it will come after CCOR which I can not do because amidianborn needs to be before it. And I don't understand that because if you open up amidianborn conflict tab the thieves guild isn't even in there. So I'm thinking I will look at the mod order warning today and now I have about half a dozen mods out of order and they were mods that I  rearranged last night according to what the warning tab told me to do with them. Can it make up its mind. I know Tannin does this for free and he is awesome for that and I know that bugs have to arise in order to figure out the correct programming but boy is this a pain in the butt. And once again let me say thank you Tannin for MO it is way better than Nexus Mod manager and I would never change over.

 I don't know it this will help any but here are todays warnings

 

• Move aMidianBorn Book of Silence - Content Addon (Skyrim Revisited) after Thieves Guild Requirements - No Auto Quest Start Brynjolf
• Move Provincial Courier Service after aMidianBorn Book of Silence - Content Addon (Skyrim Revisited)
• Move Better Vampires 6.6 after Provincial Courier Service
• Move Moonlight Tales - Werewolf and Werebear Overhaul after Better Vampires 6.6
• Move Stealth Skills Rebalanced - COMPLETE - FULL after Moonlight Tales - Werewolf and Werebear Overhaul
• Move Alternate Start - Live Another Life after Stealth Skills Rebalanced - COMPLETE - FULL

I have everything ordered correctly except for the first rule

Edited May 9, 2014 by Razorsedge877

[DoubleYou]

Generally, you should start with the first problem and work down, refreshing as you go. Many will disappear by themselves. For example, in 2.2.8 Core, you'll currently get the following warning with BOSS load order:

 

Move Run For Your Lives after Traps Make Noise

Move When Vampires Attack after Run For Your Lives

Move Non-Essential Children after When Vampires Attack

 

Moving Run For Your Lives after Traps Make Noise fixes the problem. Always look for the one problem that is currently true and move that one. In the 2.2.8 guide, the last two warnings are actually the case: When Vampires Attack is after Run For Your Lives, and Non-Essential Children is after When Vampires Attack. Run For Your Lives, however, is before Traps Make Noise, so moving it solves the entire problem after refresh.

[Razorsedge877]

I never thought of hitting the refresh button but I'm still stuck because In my mind Amidianborn should come before CCOR. Im just gonna start over and see what I can come up with. I know a lot of scripts = bad and I have picked a lot of mods with scripts. I'm not a screen archer, I love a pretty skyrim but I prefer gameplay mods over texture mods ever though I seem to have a lot of both lol. 

[DoubleYou]

You could probably safely move Thieves Guild Requirements BEFORE Amidianborn BOS.

[Razorsedge877]

Have tried it than I will just have other issues. I think it was with Enhaced blood and it I move that than something else will be wrong. lol. My list is to long.

[wolverine2710]

When unraveling the warnings its best to start with the first one, hit refresh and then see whats left to do. And indeed by solving one warning I've seem that other warnings did disappear. It looks as if the algorithm somehow gets confused, when to many mods have to be rearranged. Better said it looks as if they interact with each other (BAD explanation).  It seems 1.2.1 immediately detects when I disable a mod but there is a delay when I enable mods or move them in the left pane and warning etc doesn't get refreshed directly. Hence a manual refresh is needed. When I move the mods I change the name, as in I add 'IO changed' to the mod name. That way you can easily see what you have changed later on...

 

I've noticed something strange. Cutting room floor has to be placed after Run for your lives. I've checked the conflicts tab but no conflicts (scripts) are reported there. Not looked at the actual scripts in the mod folder yet. So I'm curious how 1.2.1 decides why I have to move them. If I've interpreted everything correctly it checks for the same scripts which overwrite each other. If there are no conflicting scripts why do I get a warning. Perhaps I'm overlooking something here.....

 

Another thing to watch for: I've noticed that when I enable/disable mods in the left pane (for the warnings) my plugin priority in the plugins tab gets reordered. Its reproducible. I noticed this with WB because for a couple of mods it reported that the masters weren't sorted correctly and then saw that in the right pane things changed. I'm using the external LOOT for my load order. 

 

Note: Tannin. Haven't looked at the code but does MO perform some kind of hash check to see if the scripts are really different and changing the installl order is needed?

 

Perhaps someone can verify my cutting room floor and run for your lives issue but I can't check atm. Likely my last post before I go on a small holiday ;-) I guess some form of slow torture testing is required to get to the bottom of it all, any torturers I mean volunteers?

 

Only with enough data which very preferable is reproducible on any ones system including Tannin's can he change things. When on holiday I will see if my mad mind can come up with some new and 'innovating' torture techniques....

[Tannin]

Guys, just to let you know: this is far too much text. I'll not continue to read this thread, I just don't have the time.

If you think something requires my attention boil the problems down for me to minimal test case that allows me to reproduce the issue. On the issue tracker! bullet points is fine, entire novels are not.

 

If we don't get this feature working I will just remove bsa extraction and separate bsa ordering from MO altogether and be done with it.

[wolverine2710]

Tannin I do understand your point.

 

However this is about discussing things and to find out if others are having similar problems, which seems to be the case.  All the info might help to find a pattern. I DO agree that for all  issues a short to the point ticket MUST be created and that we should link to that ticket. I don't expect you to read this thread.  I DO hope that BSA extraction will not be removed, such a powerful feature. I hope you understand my point of view. 

 

The issue tracker is NOT for asking questions. Perhaps you can answer my question nr 3 (post #6 of this thread). That would be appreciated.