Affordable (health) Care Act

[z929669]

Agree that the AMA/insurance complex is in bed with pharmaceuticals and that most healthcare should be for paying for the advice of nutritionists and proactive blood work. Insurance should cover this ... but again, this practice stifles transfer of dollars from the less healthy lower classes to the policy-lobbying elite.

 

However, arguments about our poor job creators is just so much drivel. Net part-time employment has in fact fallen, whilst full-time has increased, so that argument is another good example of seeding the narrative with rare anecdotal fact. Proactive and rational cooperative movement forward by consensus is just not possible when there are a few powerful fear mongers out there protecting their own selfish, short-term interests. Anyone with sense and reason can see that benefiting the whole results in a net benefit to oneself, even if one is a Koch.

 

EDIT: Regarding the debt, I totally agree with SRB. What a bunch of nonsense ... we live in a system driven by an economy based on a faux currency system with no real material backing. Most of our money is really legal counterfeit. The world's wealth is wrapped up in energy speculation in the form of oil, and that kind of energy is not sustainable, and it has no thermodynamic counterpart from which to derive future energy. Most life will have to die and re-convert to useable energy again after millennia for the next clown-intelligence to squander.

[phazer11]

Well if you want to get into oil and the energy crisis I can open up a new thread and we can discuss some of the interesting things I've seen from a group called Intellectual Ventures.

 

Anyways I have to say I'm enjoying the conversation here.

[TechAngel85]

All in all, I would say that I'm for the new healthcare system though, as many have stated, it's far from perfect. There are a few things that came with it which really needed to be done. Those that stand out in my mind are:

• Insurance companies can no longer deny you for preexisting conditions.
• Insurance companies can no longer raise your rate simply because you got sick or ended up in the hospital; essentially punishing you because you have to use the insurance for what is it there for in the first place. Auto insurance companies do the same thing. Get in an accident...rates go up. They should be next on the list to cut this "rate gouging" out.
• Eliminating annual limits for those that might require high medial costs (such as Z's family)
• Companies can no longer drop you because you choose to help advancements in medicine by participating in medical trials (I have done my duty by doing this)
• Free preventative care for Seniors and for certain preventative procedures.

The cost will be tight on my budget. Very tight, but I think it will be manageable. Time will tell.

 

As for oil and energies, I could talk all day about that. I'm all for the "Green movement" and moving toward green energies, processes and products.

[MontyMM]

I think the point about American debt and its unique status is a very important one - it doesn't bear comparison to the everyday household experience of balancing the books. I once heard someone compare America and China to two one-legged men tied together and trying to stay upright on a treadmill! I don't think that analogy is too far off the mark. The two significant powers are locked in a very strange interdependent dance - America needs to borrow ludicrous sums of money to sustain its military industrial complex (and let's not pretend for a moment that they're not running the show), and China desperately needs a customer for its vast production surplus. It's an odd hydra.

 

Oil money is certainly another conversation to be had, but also, American military spending vs the desperate shortfall of internal investment. I've seen US naval hardware - it looks like it's ready to repel a Cylon invasion. There are tens of thousands of troops stationed in Germany - why? In case they get any funny ideas? A soviet tank column on the Eastern Front?

 

This sort of over-extension is an historically classic way to collapse a great power. The UK is a fine lesson in this regard - how did the largest empire, with nearly a century's head start on the industrial revolution, find itself so outmatched in the 20th century? To a great extent, because the city of London became the great financial centre, looking about for ways to maximise investment return from the colonies - whilst largely ignoring the idea of investing in the development of the infrastructure and base of the nation. Meanwhile, the US and Germany were pursuing those very things...

[phazer11]

I think the point about American debt and its unique status is a very important one - it doesn't bear comparison to the everyday household experience of balancing the books. I once heard someone compare America and China to two one-legged men tied together and trying to stay upright on a treadmill! I don't think that analogy is too far off the mark. The two significant powers are locked in a very strange interdependent dance - America needs to borrow ludicrous sums of money to sustain its military industrial complex (and let's not pretend for a moment that they're not running the show), and China desperately needs a customer for its vast production surplus. It's an odd hydra.

 

Oil money is certainly another conversation to be had, but also, American military spending vs the desperate shortfall of internal investment. I've seen US naval hardware - it looks like it's ready to repel a Cylon invasion. There are tens of thousands of troops stationed in Germany - why? In case they get any funny ideas? A soviet tank column on the Eastern Front?

 

This sort of over-extension is an historically classic way to collapse a great power. The UK is a fine lesson in this regard - how did the largest empire, with nearly a century's head start on the industrial revolution, find itself so outmatched in the 20th century? To a great extent, because the city of London became the great financial centre, looking about for ways to maximise investment return from the colonies - whilst largely ignoring the idea of investing in the development of the infrastructure and base of the nation. Meanwhile, the US and Germany were pursuing those very things...

 

You mean like... Rome?

Also let's not forget the Japanese they're a huge threat. I mean you give them an inch and they'll take a mile and start building Gundams and EVAs.

[MontyMM]

You mean like... Rome?

Also let's not forget the Japanese they're a huge threat. I mean you give them an inch and they'll take a mile and start building Gundams and EVAs.

 

Because you never know...

 

[EssArrBee]

Well, Monty is so right about the Navy's equipment. Our laser weaponized laser technology is decades ahead of everyone else. I used to work at Whitesands and if only I was allowed to go into detail about the stuff we worked on, it would blow your mind. Used to amaze me every single day, but my specific research wasn't directly related to building weapons, so I got the axe during cut backs for the pending sequestration. If only we put that much money and time into surgical lasers or any other type of lasers we've be so much better off.

 

As a percentage of GDP though it isn't really military or social security that is going up at a huge rate, it is healthcare costs. They have skyrocketed over the last 20 or so years and only now are people complaining when we actually try to do something about. Even if we increased military spending by 20 billion a year it would still be only a fraction of GDP or a contribution to debt, also if we were to halve our military spending it would only hold off healthcare costs rising for about 10 years before it replaced the debt with medical spending. First, we have to get costs down, second we have to stop feeding people sugar, salt and fat. Our new exchange will cause competition down the road if we get enough states to implement good systems and their success will drive demand in the rest of the states. It is pretty much forced capitalism, which has been severely lacking the last few decades in healthcare and a little competition can be good for prices.

[mothergoose729]

Nearest I can tell, most countries with universal healthcare rigidly control the health care market. Its not the same eveywhere, france and germany are notable exceptions. Its on no uncertain terms socialism, but it seems to really work. I hold the minority opinion that health might not be best suited as a for profit industry. I understand the other arguments thought. One thing everybody agrees on for the most part is that everybody should be insured... well everybody with the right skin colors and ethnic backgrounds anyway, depending on who you talk too.

 

I think with very little doubt obama care will be repealed within the next five years. Us cycle will swimg right nect presidential election and republicans will get their majorty, and the cost in political capital will be far too high to ever bring it back again. Shame. Obama care is a bad bill but at least its a step in some direction on the american health care crisis.

[MontyMM]

I think with very little doubt obama care will be repealed within the next five years. Us cycle will swimg right nect presidential election and republicans will get their majorty, and the cost in political capital will be far too high to ever bring it back again.

 

I would actually wager against that.  One key reason is that the democrats have essentially become a moderate right wing party, and the GOP have become... something else...

 

I think the old right/left swing dynamic has been severely disrupted, and I could see the Democrats in power for a good while longer.  I do think that for the most part, voters vote on the most competent management team, and, unhappy as they may be with the Obama administration, the opposition currently looks like paste-eaters throwing a shotgun party.  :P

[phazer11]

Nearest I can tell' date=' most countries with universal healthcare rigidly control the health care market. Its not the same eveywhere, france and germany are notable exceptions. Its on no uncertain terms socialism, but it seems to really work. I hold the minority opinion that health might not be best suited as a for profit industry. I understand the other arguments thought. One thing everybody agrees on for the most part is that everybody should be insured... well everybody with the right skin colors and ethnic backgrounds anyway, depending on who you talk too.

 

I think with very little doubt obama care will be repealed within the next five years. Us cycle will swimg right nect presidential election and republicans will get their majorty, and the cost in political capital will be far too high to ever bring it back again. Shame. Obama care is a bad bill but at least its a step in some direction on the american health care crisis.

 

That's one of the main cruxes of the problem here. Alot of the people in congress and in general here in the US grew up during the "Red Scare" all they grew up knowing was hey Communism and Socialism are bad, I mean "the USSR is communist they must be evil" It's a mindset that's outdated and people need to change it. Socialism and Communism share a fair number of traits but they differ as well and that's another place where views get skewed.

[mothergoose729]

Monty you severely underestimate the average US voter. Minoritieis and the youth are massively under represented in the united states. The religious right and the elderly, say what you will about them, are avid voters and unfortunately extremely politically motivated. I definetely see factions in the republican party but for the time being the tea party ultra conservative wing is winning out without the republican base seeming to shrink. They view the fiascos of the debt limit, government shutdown, susan rice obserdities and many others as noble stand offs against socialism and a president that, to them, is as unamerican as fidel castro. The current trajectory of republicans is not sustainable, if only because there largest group of constituents will be dead in ten or twenty years, but they can do an aweful lot of harm before that happens. Also, do to the nature of our electoritorial system the face of the government is painfully slow to change.

 

It all comes down to the next presidential election. If a democrat can win out I think it is unlikely the republicans will be able to marshall a veto proof majority, and by the time they get their next run at the white house affordable care will probably cease to be so contreversial and many people will have come to rely on it. My vote personally will be for hilary clinton 2016... would like to see her win but I think a moderate republican will probably win out.

[EssArrBee]

If Hillary runs then there is absolutely nothing the Republicans do. Even if they hate Obama everyone remembers the 90s and another shot at that type of gov't will attract tons of voters, and especially women voters who would love to have the first women president. Bengazi will be the only thing they run against and it will not be enough to stop another Democrat president. Maybe her age stops her from running, but I doubt it. One thing is that they would need a 60% in the house and senate votes to pass a bill and 66% to override a presidential veto. Never going to get that, New York and Cali can make up enough in the house to stop that.

 

The power of the Tea Party is fading nationwide and just maintaining a hold in certain areas where they can drum up the hatemongers. Even at their height they could only get two people into the Senate, Cruz and Raul, all the others were already Republicans that were jumping on the bandwagon. In the house they have gotten out of control and much of the funding is drying up from the big donors because they created the Tea Party to stop Obama's policy in congress, but they got out of control so the rich donors turned off money spigot. Well, except for a couple people like the Kochs.

 

They will not repeal anything and they deathly afraid that it might actually work in the long run as exchanges become more competitive with employer healthcare and that is the real fight that is going on behind closed doors. All the crap on tv is just the sideshow, but in meetings with lobbyists it is all about the insurance companies keeping their collusion and oligarchy going. Breaking that up will be good in the long run.

 

Now if we could only do the same thing with cable companies. Don't how you feel about Apple and Intel, but I fully support them bringing unpackaged TV.

[phazer11]

I do hope Hillary wins you get at least a two fold advantage. Not only are she and Bill already under protection but I'm sure Bill is still privy to the goings on and in case people forgot we had a pretty nice economic surplus back then.

[z929669]

Yes, the US has been overrun by bankers and business colleges. Gone are the days of space exploration, advancing efficiencies in our infrastructure and the development of the world's largest particle accelerator.

 

We are well on our way along the path of ignorance that history has starkly laid out for all to see ... and damn it, we will drag the entire world down with us! ... a bunch of ******s, indubitably.

 

How can an intelligence ever evolve through its own self destruction? Impossible, I say.

 

 

EDIT: Oh, and I have lttle doubt that our next president will be Hillary Clinton. I voted strongly for her last time and was VERY disappointed that she did not take the primaries. At the time, I thought that this was death to Dems, but the republicans have done such a marvelous job embracing the teabaggers and falling victim to their batshit that most people that aren't staunch supporters of bigotry and fear-mongering have developed a good amount of distrust and dissatisfaction for/with the Republican party. Americans have very short memories (due to their amazing penchant for following shiny things, denial and utter stupidity), but I am confident that the Republicans will continue to alienate the nation and drive independents to Hillary even so.

 

Hillary-Care will assert itself next, and it is 20 years in the making.

[PioneerRaptor]

Well this new generation growing up won't help with any of that.

 

(Yes I am part of that generation technically, but I'm not an entitled bastard :p).