Distant DetailHF and BirdsHF clean - Cleaning dirty edits causes CTD

[Synixtrix]

I have STEP 2.2.4 installed - I have cleaned the BOSS reported dirty edits/ITMs in all apart from "Distant DetailHF" and "BirdsHF clean".

Both report dirty edits and when cleaned they cause CTD.

After cleaning they both have a X in the flag column, and after removing the Mods the DistantDetailHF.esp and the birdsHFclean.esp files remain and there is no way to delete them, they have to be hidden in the Data tab to get rid of them before reinstalling, if I dont hide them I get 2 copies of the .esp files.

Are these 2 files not supposed to be cleaned?  

Is anyone else having these issues?

Is there another thread dealing with this that I can't find?

 

Edit: I assume it has something to do with being dependant on HearthFire, as when I clean them more edits are reported deleted/cleaned than there are ITM's.

[Luinithil]

Looking at the Distant Detail HF edition Nexus page comments, it seems that TES5Edit may be reporting some ITM false positives for this mod: might want to hold off cleaning it for now. Probably need to pop over to the Bethsoft forums and ask in the TES5Edit threads. BirdsHF clean seems to have a LOT of wild edit issues that the modder is going to have to fix themselves, or someone handy with the CK to do it; xEdit can't handle those. Dang. Didn't know it was that bad. Looks like I'm going to reboot my test games and see if not using BirdsHF clean might clear some issues that keep cropping up...

[Synixtrix]

Yeah, I read the same info on Nexus re:Distant DetailHF, but despite looking and looking, I could not find any info about whether it was safe to clean anyway. I have reproduced the same effect with other mods since, Expanded Apocrathy Inventory being 1, it behaved the same way when I cleaned it. It was reporting 1 UDR and when cleaned it "cleaned" more than just the 1 UDR and then flagged with an X, I had to hide the Esp file in order to reinstall it as well.

I really just wanted to potentially warn others that cleaning these 2 mods can cause problems. One thing I did fail to mention, and it was pretty major, but I am not going to do it twice to see if it can be reproduced, it crashed MO at one stage when I was trying to isolate the CTD cause, and then I had to reinstall all my mods from scratch, luckily I kept all the downloaded zip/rar files, it was still a hassle though and one I have no intention of repeating any time soon.

[Bundy714]

I'm not new to playing Skyrim with a lot of mods, but since I built a new PC and had to reinstall everything, I thought I'd install Skyrim using the STEP guidelines this time around, and it's things like this that confuse me. On one hand STEP teaches us to avoid and/or clean mods with errors in them as reported by BOSS. Then I see that Distant Detail HF edition is on the list of CORE recommended mods, yet everyone says Boss claims it has lots of errors. So, how did it get on the recommended Mods list with all those errors? Heck, this mod is even marked as CORE to the STEP experience.

 

I haven't installed or cleaned it yet, so I don't know if it will cause CTD issues for me or not. I'm not far enough along in my STEP installation to have tried it yet, but just reading about it confuses me as to how it ever got on the CORE STEP recommended list with all the errors people are reporting. I just assumed that if a mod was on the STEP recommended list, then it was already clean, and we would only have to clean any mods that we installed that weren't on the STEP list.

 

My whole reason for using STEP was to ensure I had as stable a game as possible, and here is a CORE mod with loads of errors being reported.  What am I missing here?

[Bundy714]

Ahhh, looking at Neovalen's Skyrim Revisited page, I get this advice on how to clean Distant Detail HF edition:

 

Distant Detail Hearthfire Edition

 

Author: Kazoomie - Dovahsbane

Version: 1.0

Warning-Logo.png Warning:This mod requires cleaning with TES5Edit.

 

To resolve the problem(s), perform the following:

 

Run TES5Edit.

Select Distant DetailHF.esp then click [OK].

Right-click Distant DetailHF.esp in the left pane and select "Apply Filter For Cleaning".

Right-click Distant DetailHF.esp and select "Remove Identical To Master Records".

Right-click Distant DetailHF.esp and select "Undelete and Disable References".

Click the [X] in the upper right hand corner, uncheck "Backup plugins", and click [OK].

 

Warning-Logo.png Warning:Post-cleaning, this mod should not alter any blocks. However, one wild edit is left in the Hearthfire Edition and should be removed.

 

To resolve the problem(s), perform the following:

 

Open TES5Edit.

Select all Bethesda ESMs and Distant DetailHF.esp then click [OK].

Expand "Worldspace">"0000003C" and select the "Block 0,0" node then press [Delete] on the keyboard.

Click the [X] in the upper right hand corner, uncheck "Backup plugins", and click [OK].

 

Warning-Logo.png Warning:This mod does not forward some fixes from the unofficial patches.

 

To resolve the problem(s), perform the following:

 

Open TES5Edit.

Select Unofficial Skyrim Patch.esp and Distant DetailHF.esp then click [OK].

Expand "Worldspace">"0000003C">"00000D74">"Persistant" under Distant DetailHF.esp and select the "0002BAED" node.

Drag the "DATA - Position/Rotation" records from Unofficial Skyrim Patch.esp to Distant DetailHF.esp.

Repeat this for the "0004302E" and "0004836B" nodes.Click the [X] in the upper right hand corner, uncheck "Backup plugins", and click [OK].

---

Why no mention of all this cleaning on the STEP 2.2.5 Wiki page? That seems to be a much more detailed and involved cleaning than the easy cleaning I learned doing the Skyrim .esm's.

All I learned about in the TESVedit tutorial was cleaning identical to master records, but this has you cleaning "wild edits" and correcting "a failure to forward fixes from the unofficial patches" problem. Obviously I have a lot to learn about cleaning mods, but still I am confused how this could be a CORE STEP mod when it needs a three step cleaning process, and why the STEP Wiki tells you absolutely nothing about it? And, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, I'm just trying to understand. Are there a lot of other things that the STEP Wiki leaves out or just expects you to know? Maybe I'm supposed to ignore the STEP Wiki and use Neovalen's Skyrim Revisited Guide instead?

[Aiyen]

What you ask for would require that every mod author gives permission for STEP to alter their content, which is not going to happen.

The only thing BOSS does is add cleaning notes to various mods. The only thing this process do is to remove entries from mods that have not been altered in any way from vanilla. These do not cause any inherit instability, it is just good practice not to have identical copies of the vanilla masters in a mod, since they are loaded anyways.

 

If a mod have been accepted to be on the STEP list, then it is because it has been tested stable and a good addition to the list.

Just because someone else on some other forum says a mod have issues, then half the time it is because they do not even bother to use BOSS. I know it is also widespread that certain people just install and remove mods on current saves and then thinks it is the next mod they try that is the cause of issues. The list could go on like this.

 

All the mods on the STEP list have been verified and tested as being compatible and will provide a stable experience as long as you have the required hardware requirements for your specific choices.

 

Edit: The reason SR is doing all of this, is because it is a take on what STEP can be when you add even more complexity on top. Then down the line then all these small errors, and mishaps add up and cause the game to be more unstable. For STEP that is not so much an issue.

[Bundy714]

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. So what you are saying is if STEP recommends a mod, then I shouldn't worry about it needing any cleaning as it's already been tested and approved.

 

And, I didn't get my info from "someone else on another forum", Neovalen is a STEP administrator and his Skyrim Revisited Guide is on this forum : https://wiki.step-project.com/User:Neovalen/Skyrim_Revisited

 

I'm just trying to learn here, no need to get annoyed at me for not understanding everything. I thought the Wiki was to teach people that didn't know what they were doing (like me) but it seems to be more for people that already know what they are doing......although I wonder why they would even need a Wiki then. I had hoped to not have to just blindly do as the Wiki told me. You get the job done that way, but you don't learn anything. I hoped it would not only tell me what to do, but teach me why and how to do those things. I guess I wanted to much, I'll just follow instructions without trying to think too much about why in the future. Thanks for the help and the clarification.

[Aiyen]

Sorry if I came off as being annoyed! That was in no way my intention! :)

 

The Skyrim Revisited is a more advanced guide for people who want to learn more, but it does deviate from the STEP mandate in that it also contains gameplay altering mods. A such then it have more issues since more scripted mods gets added, which is why it is a good thing to reduce the amount of conflicts for a more stable experience. You can of course take the edits from SR and apply them to STEP if you wish, most changes from the DLC and unofficial patches would also apply to STEP. The various mod patches will however only apply if you actually use said mods.

 

As for the why and how to do things, then there are some comprehensive guides on tes5edit(Actually its fallout counterpart but the essence of them is the same.) about that are several hundred pages long if you really want to get into the details. As to learning these things on your own, then the SR guide is a good tool. The first time I did it then I also just closed my eyes and copy pasted things to get through it. Then when various mods got updated I took more time when I had to reapply the changes to see what they actually where doing.

Ultimately I tried to take various mods not on the list and then looked through them myself to see if I could make the changes myself. The more you do it the more you just know which entries are in need of being replaced.

In the end it depends on how much time you want to put into studying the finer details of mod install and management. If you just want to get playing you can just follow the STEP guide to the letter and you should be playing in a day. If you follow SR then it will most likely require a few days before you can get playing.

 

The wiki is not so much meant to teach as it is to provide a reference for which you can setup your skyrim experience according to certain parameters. You can of course learn from doing the setup. And you can always come back here and ask, everybody loves a good puzzle!

[Bundy714]

Awesome, thanks Aiyen, that makes perfect sense now. So the Wiki is for those that want to get up and playing Skyrim as soon as possible without over burdening them with too much minute detail, and the SR guide is a more advanced and in depth guide. Now I understand why they can differ in their approach, as the Wiki would be good enough for the majority of the people who were just interested in playing a stable game and not caring too much about the why's and how's of making it stable.

 

As for me, haha, I've spent more days reading and learning than playing. I enjoy playing, but enjoy learning just as much. I've spent the time since last post going over all of Sharlikran's video's, especially his Conflicts video. And I've downloaded the FNVEdit Training Manual and find it fascinating. Now I'm not so frustrated wondering why I was originally just taught how to fix "identical to master records" with TES5Edit, when it could do so much more. I had this whole "there's more to this than they are telling me" vibe going on, and now I understand why. It's not because people were deliberately keeping knowledge from me, it's because they were giving me the basic knowledge to get Skyrim playing without going into all the more advanced details. The advanced stuff is out there, you just have to look deeper to find it, and I'm thoroughly enjoying finding it. I'm the kind of guy that gets more excited about a good Creation Kit tutorial than I do in playing the game. The game is awesome, but if you master the tools, and the CK, the limits to what you can do are just unimaginable. And that knowledge and those possibilities call to me, haha. Guess that makes me a nerd.

 

Now, I'm sure you didn't mean to come across as annoyed with my confusion and frustration, but that's how it originally sounded to me after I've been up all night (lack of sleep can make me kind of sensitive). As a matter of fact, I find your helpful responses to people's questions all over the site. So thank you for clearing that up for me, and I'm glad to know that my asking questions won't be considered as annoying. I guess it should have been obvious to me that the Wiki was just a basic guide to get people going and wasn't meant to be a thorough in depth look at the inner workings of the game engine. Lack of sleep had me thinking that people were hoarding secret knowledge from me, and I wanted that more advanced knowledge that they only gave you glimpses of, haha. I really need to get some sleep but it's hard to stop with so much to learn just waiting on you. I love this place, it's like a gold mine.

 

Thanks for taking the time to get me started on the right track. And I apologize for being so verbose, but I get that way when something gets me excited.

[Aiyen]

No harm done! Just glad I could help!

Sounds like you will have your own content up soon enough with that passion! :)

[DoYouEvenModBro]

What you ask for would require that every mod author gives permission for STEP to alter their content, which is not going to happen.

The only thing BOSS does is add cleaning notes to various mods. The only thing this process do is to remove entries from mods that have not been altered in any way from vanilla. These do not cause any inherit instability, it is just good practice not to have identical copies of the vanilla masters in a mod, since they are loaded anyways.

 

If a mod have been accepted to be on the STEP list, then it is because it has been tested stable and a good addition to the list.

Just because someone else on some other forum says a mod have issues, then half the time it is because they do not even bother to use BOSS. I know it is also widespread that certain people just install and remove mods on current saves and then thinks it is the next mod they try that is the cause of issues. The list could go on like this.

 

All the mods on the STEP list have been verified and tested as being compatible and will provide a stable experience as long as you have the required hardware requirements for your specific choices.

 

Edit: The reason SR is doing all of this, is because it is a take on what STEP can be when you add even more complexity on top. Then down the line then all these small errors, and mishaps add up and cause the game to be more unstable. For STEP that is not so much an issue.

So I know that what I'm about to say is pretty taboo around here but I've been using the same save file since Skyrim came out in 2011....it has like 200 hours on it and I've installed and uninstalled a ton of STEP mods at least like 20 times lol. I've never used any scripted mods that haven't been recommended in STEP though. The only CTD problems I've had are due to my system RAM creeping up above 3 GB. Could part of the reason for the high RAM usage be from scripts left from previous mods? I was under the impression that the "clearinvalidregistrations" command gets rid of unused running scripts but apparently this is not the case? I really hate to let this save go as Ive been working on it for like 2 years haha. I haven't seen any corrupted saves or anything of that manner but I"m just wondering if perhaps that is the reason why my RAM usage fills up so quickly or if I just need to keep trying to reduce textures. I gave up on Cleanmem as I'm pretty positive that it doesn't do anything. 

[zenkmander]

SKSE's clear function can only do so much. If you have installed/uninstalled a bunch of script-based mods (or even non-script mods actually), you can expect some issues in your save file, especially after 2 years.

 

How big is that save? Also, enable Papyrus logging, play until you get a CTD, and skim through the log. You'll see just how much is left over in your save :)

[DoYouEvenModBro]

SKSE's clear function can only do so much. If you have installed/uninstalled a bunch of script-based mods (or even non-script mods actually), you can expect some issues in your save file, especially after 2 years.

 

How big is that save? Also, enable Papyrus logging, play until you get a CTD, and skim through the log. You'll see just how much is left over in your save :)

My save is 16 mb. Everytime it crashes, it is because the RAM surpasses 3 GB. What is the best way to paste a papyrus log here?

[Aiyen]

You do not want to post a papyrus log in here :P

 

If you do please do it in spoiler tags! They are long and horrible to read!

 

Also you can technically always add mods to an old save without it will destroy it. But you cannot keep removing mods and then expect it keeps working.

SKSE can only do so much! The best rule for script stability is still... decide on a selection of mods and play! With MO this is even easier since you can make separate profiles for various combinations of mods.

[DoYouEvenModBro]

You do not want to post a papyrus log in here :P

 

If you do please do it in spoiler tags! They are long and horrible to read!

 

Also you can technically always add mods to an old save without it will destroy it. But you cannot keep removing mods and then expect it keeps working.

SKSE can only do so much! The best rule for script stability is still... decide on a selection of mods and play! With MO this is even easier since you can make separate profiles for various combinations of mods.

That's probably what's causing my high RAM usage, because even with a ton of reductions, I'm still creeping above 3 GB. 

 

EDIT: Although I don't remember if it was you or someone else, but someone who had made further reductions than me tested out the falkreath area and found that they almost passed 3 GB as well so perhaps that's not the reason. Is there any way that my game is fine?

 

EDIT EDIT: The papyrus log should tell me exactly if it is trying to load scripts for a mod that is no longer installed, right?

[Aiyen]

I told you that I had about 3Gb in that area as well, but stability was fine for me... Others might have as well! ¨

But that area is

A: Wooded, they always have more stuff, and hence higher memory requirements.

B: It is near varying vegetation, and climate so there is even more stuff that needs to be loaded.

 

 

Well the log would note down any scripts... so if a script error pops up for a mod you no longer have on your list then yes. However the log is normally REALLY REALLY long and hard to find around in.