CTD with Cathedral Weathers and Seasons - Help?

[DoubleYou]

Removing the ability for the user to see warnings is not good practice.

The main reason I am against this is exactly outlined in my post above. Things generated by the game, whether from SKSE plugins or otherwise, will be placed into the SKSE mod, which is not intuitive. People then don't know where the files are located. They can't find them. It doesn't make sense to them that the config file for XYZ is in this overbroad SKSE mod. Yes, we could instruct users to have all output go to an SKSE mod, but then the users can't find the generated files.

A perfectly valid and very common issue with this in the Step guide are the users who (and there have been quite a few of them) forgot to download the AE Creation Club content. Then they launch the game and it downloads during the Game Launch Test. And, if we went with your plan of making the Overwrite mod the SKSE mod, they will have no idea where they are, because they downloaded into the stupid SKSE mod. Whereas otherwise, as many users have already stated, they see they're in Overwrite, and they figure out what they need to do to deal with them. And they do, and I don't think any of them had trouble with this process, which they wouldn't even be aware of if it weren't for Overwrite and the warning in MO.

If you want to restrict this discussion to only current mods in the current Step guide, that is a very bad qualification. We should always advise generally good modding practices that go beyond just our little guide. If someone follows our guide for the tool setup and a Step profile, but adds another profile using the same tools and their mods generate meaningful files that need to be managed correctly, they will not know where to find them. NGIO is an extremely good example of this, and I think it is extremely unwise to say that this is a moot point. After all, I'm the one who generates them for our guide, and it has far too many steps already that I can easily forget a step without adding another one. It generally takes me 4 tries to get it right as so as it is. Seasons of Skyrim users also will find this practice abhorrent. And I'm sure there are other, yes, non-Step mods that do not play nice with this practice. 

All you're doing is removing the warning in your method. If you read the warning text, it tells users exactly how to understand what it is and how to handle it, if only they would read it.

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There are currently files in your Overwrite directory. These files are typically newly created files, usually generated by an external mod tool (i.e. Wrye Bash, xEdit, FNIS, ...). Creation Club ESL files will also end up here when downloaded. Any files in Overwrite will take top priority when loading your mod files and will always overwrite any other mod in your profile.

It is recommended that you review the files in Overwrite and move any relevant files to a new or existing mod. You can do this by double-clicking the Overwrite mod and dragging files from the Overwrite window to a mod entry in the main mod list. It is also possible to move all current Overwrite files to a new mod by right-clicking on the Overwrite mod.

Not all files in Overwrite need to be removed, but there are several reasons to do so. Some generated files will be directly related to the active mods in your profile and will be incompatible with different mod setups. Since Overwrite is always active, this could cause conflicts between profiles. Additionally, moving relevant game files into a normal mod will give you greater control over those files. Some files can live safely in Overwrite, such as basic logs and cache files. It is up to you to understand how best to manage these files.

If you do not wish to see this warning and understand how to handle your Overwrite directory, you can open the Mod Organizer settings and disable this warning under the "Diagnose Basic" plugin configuration.

I don't agree with your opinion that common users shouldn't need to RTFM. After all, our guide is a manual.

As for this being busywork, it literally is moving 1 file in the current guide to the relevant mod. Fuz Ro D'oh. A simple drag and drop. If we really want to outline exactly how the user should manage this in our guide, we can simply instruct the following:

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After first run of the game, the Fuz Ro D'oh - Silent Voice mod will have generated a configuration file in Overwrite. It is recommended to right-click Overwrite and select Move Content to Mod, selecting the Fuz Ro D'oh - Silent Voice mod from the Filter.

This is arguably easier to perform than the proposal of creation of the SKSE mod.

[z929669]

I can honestly relate to all arguments from all sides. I personally like the idea of preempting output related to SKSE into an SKSE-labeled mod, and similar for other files mediated by ther respective MO executables, but I also see  the value of finding them (and dealing with them and reading the guidance DY provided) in Overwrite.

This is why I removed that instruction at the behest of the crew ... I keep changing my mind about it.

[Mousetick]

This discussion about Overwrite and modding practices could go on endlessly. It appears we have fundamentally diverging views about whether acquiring certain knowledge or learning certain practices are worth spending their free time by common users. I believe most users don't wish, and shouldn't need, to spend their free time learning things that will only be useful to them once or twice in a blue moon, especially if the end goal is leisure and entertainment. Judging by the large early success of Collections on Nexus, it looks like I'm not completely wrong. As long as expert users, and geek users willing to spend time learning the finer details, are not prevented from doing anything they want to accomplish, I think making things simpler and easier for everyone else, which is the majority, is a net positive.

Ok, I've already rambled too much

I just wanted to add one correction and one clarification:

• Correction: I was mistaken about NGIO. If you use the 'Precache Grass' MO2 plugin to generate the grass cache (which I'm hoping you do, for your own sanity), it actually doesn't matter how you configure the SKSE launcher executable in MO2, because the 'Precache Grass' plugin bypasses all that. It starts the SKSE launcher directly, which is logical, since it doesn't know how you configured the SKSE launcher - you might have named it 'My Little Pony'. So the grass cache generated by NGIO always goes to Overwrite regardless. Nice, heh?
• Clarification: It's not that I think common users shouldn't RTFM. But the simple fact of the matter is that common users don't RTFM. I don't blame them for that (see ramble above). Hence the need to design and present things as much as possible in a way that does not require RTFMing by the majority of users.

[z929669]

9 hours ago, Mousetick said:

• Correction: I was mistaken about NGIO. If you use the 'Precache Grass' MO2 plugin to generate the grass cache (which I'm hoping you do, for your own sanity), it actually doesn't matter how you configure the SKSE launcher executable in MO2, because the 'Precache Grass' plugin bypasses all that. It starts the SKSE launcher directly, which is logical, since it doesn't know how you configured the SKSE launcher - you might have named it 'My Little Pony'. So the grass cache generated by NGIO always goes to Overwrite regardless. Nice, heh?
• Clarification: It's not that I think common users shouldn't RTFM. But the simple fact of the matter is that common users don't RTFM. I don't blame them for that (see ramble above). Hence the need to design and present things as much as possible in a way that does not require RTFMing by the majority of users.

• Grass output will go into the SKSE mod if you set it up as I have (I do plan on using a separate mod specifically for SKSE-related output that in the future in my personal setup as I mentioned ... I DO think this is both instructive and efficient)
• Step is specifically and primarily geared towards 'teaching' novice users how to mod by providing/consolidating clear resources and instructions at fingertip. That's why we began the project: to consolidate and maintain relevant and otherwise disparate information on modding. It is secondarily concerned with 'convenience', so RTFM is expected with this philosophy. Collections are something I plan on supporting with Step to cater to the users you infer. There is value in that ... BUT isn't it funny that many compaintive users often choose to deviate from recommendations and are bothered by the concept of RTFM? Many will manage to break even a well-designed Collection, I'm sure. People tend to want what they want in the moment. We are annoying creatures in that way sometimes

[SuperOwen]

On 6/6/2022 at 4:29 AM, Mousetick said:

I'm glad you were able to sort out your issues in the end. Sorry for hijacking your topic with our Overwrite "debate" 

By all means, debate away! It's an interesting discussion, I feel more knowledgeable just from reading your exchanges.

Just wanted to check back in to say that I have benchmarked, added an ENB, and added all the LODS. Everything appears to be working perfectly! I've been trying to get a Mod list that was just right since November (2x on my own, 1x using that "collections" feature on Vortex, and now finally success with STEP!), and STEP feels just right! I'm so glad I can finally start playing this damned game again!

Keep up the good work, it's much appreciated.