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6 hours ago, Majorman said:

OK, z (sorry, can't remember your full nickname), I did some further tweaking to the NVSE instructions. How does it look to you? If it is satisfying, I'll carry it over to the new mods.

FYI I used Skyrim LE as reference up to now,but I think the SE looks better.

In an unrelated note, where can I upload screenshots to use in the wiki. I won't go overboard, but I think I'll need two to supplement some of the mod instructions.

Also, do you have the practice to upload custom. ini files? One mod in particular, lStewieAl's Tweaks has over 200+ options, all toggle-able in an ini. I think in that particular case uploading a custom ini is easier than uploading a wall of text (it took me over 3 hours yesterday to go through all options and decide which to use). 

To upload files, use Tools > Upload File. Images, INIs, whatever.

We generally avoid use of images on mod pages though, as it isn't really necessary with most of the hundreds of mods we use to date. SKSE64 does use one though.

Also, I would seriously consider using the SKSE64 instructions verbatim, changing only the SKSE-specific wording and settings to the NVSE wording/settings. I imagine that NVSE is set up in almost exactly the same way. You are instructing to install the DLLs into a mod folder, but that's incorrect. I'm pretty sure they DO need to be installed into the game folder just as the SKSE64 instructions say, which is why I think you should just copy that entire markup over to NVSE mod page and edit the SKSE strings to NVSE strings. Just edit that mod and copy/paste the markup.

That mod page also gives you the correct format for headings and other wiki markup for mod pages.

For the config file, I would use winMerge to determine the diff between the default config and your edited one. It may not be as much as you think, but IDK.

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Posted (edited)

Just to update everyone, I've cobbled together a modlist and I am currently working on getting all the Mod IDs and authors, so I can send them over to z929669 to create the necessary pages.

One thing I've been struggling with currently is body replacers. Unfortunately, Bethesda did a terrible job with vanilla body meshes, especially the females. On top of it all, the game was designed for ancient consoles that couldn't handle details like toes, so everyone has paddle feet like a Ducktales character. Unfortunately (again), 99% of the replacers in Nexus are (at least to some extent) NSFW. The one that I found out and is not NSFW is not that big of an improvement over the original and comes without textures, so I got a semi-shoddy model with the vanilla low-res textures in the end. 

So I was wondering how far can I take the character model replacer while complying with the mandate? Can I recommend replacer modes as long as I provide instructions on how to keep everyone in their underwear, or should I leave everything vanilla? Also, on the same topic, can I list skin texture mods (their mod pages show too much skin, as you probably know)? Or just keep everything vanilla? Put the replacers in an optional pack? 

Just FYI, the replacers I'm considering are already in the "Fear and Loathing" guide.

Based on your advice, I can decide on which mods to leave in the guide. 

Edit: I will upload the modlist to Google docs, so anyone interest can review it, hopefully on Monday.

Edited by Majorman

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The Skyrim guide has the same ssue in that it uses Tempered Skins for Femals - UNP that is a NSFW Nexus page and I seem to recall the FOMOD has some NSFW screenshots,, but it's very difficult to find good female body textures that are completely SFW. The Fear and Loathing in New Vegas guide uses Type3 Body and Armor Replacer by Exeter that is the most popular for Fallout New Vegas. The Clear and Present Danger guide for Fallout 3 uses Type3 Underwear Replacer by Exeter and DIMONIZED TYPE3 female body by Dimon99.

I don't mean to sway your opinion of which body mods should be used in your guide... just throwing out some options that have been used in the past.

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Echoing Greg here.

It's fine if the body replacer is NSFW as long as the options chosen are SFW. We just note on the mod page that it is an NSFW resource and that users can install what they like, but we are directing them to install the  SFW options.

We try to stay as family friendly as possible and make it obvious that we are doing so. But if we need to navigate around some explicit stuff, we do so and just provide the warnings.

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Posted (edited)

The guide is now in early alpha. Here's a link to the modlist.

The spreadsheet is formatted in a way that allowed me to quickly extract the data in a Notepad and provide it to z919669 who kindly offered to create the modpages in batch. The mods coloured in grey might increase the difficulty a notch (most of the are configurable) for a better experience.

@z929669: Please see the file attached to this comment. I didn't find the option to attach it to a PM. The column are separated by a semi-column (";" - this sign, I'm not a native speaker, so I might be wrong about how it's called), as commas are used to separate mod authors where there's more than one of them. Please let me know if it needs a rework.

In the meantime, everyone is welcomed to comment and criticize, just please, be constructive.

Just a brief overview (and comparison to EssArrBee's wonderful guide) for those interested:

  • Stability mods are all the hype now and the main reason why I came back to play FNV. The stability section is heavily reworked;
  • Fallout: New Vegas can handle 255 plugins now. So I had the opportunity to add mods and don't care about hitting the mod limit. There's no need to merge plugins anymore.
  • The new guide contains no fan-made NPC, quest add-ons or fan-man locations. I think they are not in line with the "core" mandate and besides, I rarely use them. I sink 100+ hours on a complete play-through of the game as-is, I don't need another distraction. So these sections are out of scope.
  • A modder named Macintroll has deleted his Nexus account and all related mods. That is unfortunate, as he was the author of the only decent clothing retexture out there. I've listed an alternative, but it's kind of shoddy.
  • Many of the mods on EssArrBee's list have been written in the days of yore, with limited NVSE scripting capabilities. Today xNVSE allows for less save-game bloating and better compatibilities (less patching through mods). I have used the "Viva New Vegas" guide's "Mods to avoid" section to replace all the mods that have been rewritten for the better.
  • Project Nevada, the once go-to FNV overhaul is not on the new list. It was old, broken and (as it figures) game-breaking, at times. I have listed a number of mods that replace the majority of PN's "Core" and "Rebalance" modules, while the "Equipment" section is in the optional Equipment pack. The Cyberware module is not on the list, it has a replacement, but I've always found it a bit overpowered and lore-unfriendly.
  • EVE is another big overhaul not on my list. It causes serious save-bloating and hardware strain. No replacement at the moment, but I might write a guide on how to use its assets as an retexture to the energy weapons (it doesn't seem too hards, but it requires a bit more advanced users).
  • I've added a large amount of retextures to the list that were not present in EssArrBee's guide (but never go above 2k). I use most of them without any significant loss of FPS and I think with the improved stability provided by the new stability mods, it's well worth it.
  • There are still some creatures that haven't been retextured (or that i haven't found). Sadly, they stick out as a sore thumb, but nothing I can do at the moment. If anyone knows of some obscure retextures for creatures, please let me know.
  • No ENB in the guide. EssArrBee wasn't too keen on recommending an ENB either, but as it turns out, ?ENBoost does not play well with New Vegas Tick Fix and the latter is better optimized to handle heap allocation and VRAM management.
  • Savegame management, XP and levelling, different UI elements and even some animations will be handled by lStewieal's Tweaks. So I've intentionally omitted some of the mods that are on EssArrBee's list.

One last note, LOD textures are not exactly "Utility" mods, but due to the age of the game and the structure of is retexture packages (most of those were created before LODGen was a thing and had not LOD objects in them), I usually install them last, overwriting everything, right before running LODGen.

FNV_Mods.txt

Edited by Majorman

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5 hours ago, Majorman said:

The guide is now in early alpha. Here's a link to the modlist.

The spreadsheet is formatted in a way that allowed me to quickly extract the data in a Notepad and provide it to z919669 who kindly offered to create the modpages in batch. The mods coloured in grey might increase the difficulty a notch (most of the are configurable) for a better experience.

@z929669: Please see the file attached to this comment. I didn't find the option to attach it to a PM. The column are separated by a semi-column (";" - this sign, I'm not a native speaker, so I might be wrong about how it's called), as commas are used to separate mod authors where there's more than one of them. Please let me know if it needs a rework.

In the meantime, everyone is welcomed to comment and criticize, just please, be constructive.

Just a brief overview (and comparison to EssArrBee's wonderful guide) for those interested:

  • Stability mods are all the hype now and the main reason why I came back to play FNV. The stability section is heavily reworked;
  • Fallout: New Vegas can handle 255 plugins now. So I had the opportunity to add mods and don't care about hitting the mod limit. There's no need to merge plugins anymore.
  • The new guide contains no fan-made NPC, quest add-ons or fan-man locations. I think they are not in line with the "core" mandate and besides, I rarely use them. I sink 100+ hours on a complete play-through of the game as-is, I don't need another distraction. So these sections are out of scope.
  • A modder named Macintroll has deleted his Nexus account and all related mods. That is unfortunate, as he was the author of the only decent clothing retexture out there. I've listed an alternative, but it's kind of shoddy.
  • Many of the mods on EssArrBee's list have been written in the days of yore, with limited NVSE scripting capabilities. Today xNVSE allows for less save-game bloating and better compatibilities (less patching through mods). I have used the "Viva New Vegas" guide's "Mods to avoid" section to replace all the mods that have been rewritten for the better.
  • Project Nevada, the once go-to FNV overhaul is not on the new list. It was old, broken and (as it figures) game-breaking, at times. I have listed a number of mods that replace the majority of PN's "Core" and "Rebalance" modules, while the "Equipment" section is in the optional Equipment pack. The Cyberware module is not on the list, it has a replacement, but I've always found it a bit overpowered and lore-unfriendly.
  • EVE is another big overhaul not on my list. It causes serious save-bloating and hardware strain. No replacement at the moment, but I might write a guide on how to use its assets as an retexture to the energy weapons (it doesn't seem too hards, but it requires a bit more advanced users).
  • I've added a large amount of retextures to the list that were not present in EssArrBee's guide (but never go above 2k). I use most of them without any significant loss of FPS and I think with the improved stability provided by the new stability mods, it's well worth it.
  • There are still some creatures that haven't been retextured (or that i haven't found). Sadly, they stick out as a sore thumb, but nothing I can do at the moment. If anyone knows of some obscure retextures for creatures, please let me know.
  • No ENB in the guide. EssArrBee wasn't too keen on recommending an ENB either, but as it turns out, ?ENBoost does not play well with New Vegas Tick Fix and the latter is better optimized to handle heap allocation and VRAM management.
  • Savegame management, XP and levelling, different UI elements and even some animations will be handled by lStewieal's Tweaks. So I've intentionally omitted some of the mods that are on EssArrBee's list.

One last note, LOD textures are not exactly "Utility" mods, but due to the age of the game and the structure of is retexture packages (most of those were created before LODGen was a thing and had not LOD objects in them), I usually install them last, overwriting everything, right before running LODGen.

FNV_Mods.txt 16.81 kB · 0 downloads

The mod list text format looks good ... are these all NEW mods not currently on the wiki? If so, we can go through them as a group so that we get the mocGroup cats right. We may be of limited help without knowledge of these mods, so we'll likely have some questions: @TechAngel85, @DoubleYou, @Greg it would be great if you all could review this mod list and comment on the proposed modGroup assignments or ask questions about the mods so that the current assignments can be validated.

I see that Macintroll still has a Nexus profile, so not sure that he is 'gone' last active today on Nexus. I found a mod source though. Since it seems legit and includes license reference, it should be OK for us to link. There is mention of "against the author's wishes": https://gamebanana.com/mods/38988

... and another source for more: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/7ky3fr09s22qf/macintroll-archive

Tech will need to approve these sources though. I approve - My feeling is that if it's available from a CDN or legit online source, then it's fair game. We don't advocate illegal distribution of copy-protected work, but if we aren't providing it, and it's freely available from a 'reliable' source (meaning that it's not a torrent site or other transient resource), then it's ok for us to point to. Also, I don't have any info on the copyright status of macintroll's mods and could not find anything outside of second-hand commentary and insinuation. I think it's assumed copyright 'protected' given no specifics on that.

tools, utilities, and LOD: The app used to gen LOD is the '01-Tools' mod. '19-Utilities' is closely related, but pertains more to a mod used to generate resources. DynDOLOD is one that can be included in either group, but we use 01-Tools, since it doesn't require any upstream mods to work (outside of it's own resources). It also just feels more like a 'tool'. FNIS is a good example of a '19-Utility', since it must be used against 3rd-party mods and configures animations for the load order. The resulting LOD atlas/meshes/textures are not mods but output. The resources used to gen LOD should go under '03-Resources' ... see ModGroup descriptions for guidance. Getting this piece right is important, since it pertains to all future guides. Logical placement according to group name and definition is first priority, but strategic placement is a close second priority if it alleviates the need to hide resources or create a patch.

 

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To be honest, I didn't find any FO3- or FNV-related mods on the wiki. I think no mod pages were ever created for those games, as you said in the beginning of the thread, the "Fear and Loathing" and "Clear and Present Danger" were embedded into the respective creator's profile and had that "unofficial" feel, but let's wait and see. Maybe I didn't look for them very thoroughly.

 

I know both alternative sources you listed, but their legality better be investigated by the STEP team. If I get an OK, I'll list them.

 

Lastly, I think that the LODGen resources (meshes+textures) could be moved to 06 - Models and Textures as long as they are installed/arranged last of all the mods in that category. I don't think I've placed anything in the groups that follow them that can overwrite them. I also have doubts about the placement of iStewieAl's Tweaks as it affects almost every aspect of the game - from Quality of Life tweaks, to UI elements, save management and even animations. Maybe that's a Utility?

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1 hour ago, Majorman said:

To be honest, I didn't find any FO3- or FNV-related mods on the wiki. I think no mod pages were ever created for those games, as you said in the beginning of the thread, the "Fear and Loathing" and "Clear and Present Danger" were embedded into the respective creator's profile and had that "unofficial" feel, but let's wait and see. Maybe I didn't look for them very thoroughly.

There were a couple, but I hadn't checked to see exactly how many. Very unlikely that there will be dupes, but my batch process will catch them if page names are identical.

1 hour ago, Majorman said:

I know both alternative sources you listed, but their legality better be investigated by the STEP team. If I get an OK, I'll list them.

As I mentioned, the legality is the onus of the host of those sources. We would only be linking to them as 'stable' sources, because that's all we are concerned with (aside from implicitly 'validating' those sources by linking to them, which is not a legal but arguably more of a perception problem that I am not at all concerned with ... just as long as @TechAngel85 agrees).

1 hour ago, Majorman said:

Lastly, I think that the LODGen resources (meshes+textures) could be moved to 06 - Models and Textures as long as they are installed/arranged last of all the mods in that category. I don't think I've placed anything in the groups that follow them that can overwrite them. I also have doubts about the placement of iStewieAl's Tweaks as it affects almost every aspect of the game - from Quality of Life tweaks, to UI elements, save management and even animations. Maybe that's a Utility?

If LODGen resources are in a single mod, then it definitely belongs in 03-Resources. If they are distributed among mods as ancillary components of those mods, then they belong wherever those mods are categorized. Remember that we are not talking about plugin order here. It is mod prioritization order via the mod manager, which only affects asset overrides of loose files. BSA assets will travel along with the respective plugins if they exist. Placement in the ModGroup cat needs to be logical first and strategic second (as long as the landing cat is also logical). Lastly, MO allows us to hide assets, which we do occasionally. This is the only (minor) artifact of forcing logical ModGroup categorization.

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Wait, you don't encourage people to install mesh/texture/animation replacers in a specific order (within a category)? Does that even work? Isn't it easier to ask people to follow a specific install order than to provide instructions about what assets to hide? 

 

I've always sorted my mod order (left pane of MO). It's the plugin tab I rarely care about - LOOT does a pretty good job at sorting. As abbot Arnaud Amalric qould say (had he played Skyrim) - "activate them all, let LOOT sort them out"

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37 minutes ago, Majorman said:

Wait, you don't encourage people to install mesh/texture/animation replacers in a specific order (within a category)? Does that even work? Isn't it easier to ask people to follow a specific install order than to provide instructions about what assets to hide? 

 

I've always sorted my mod order (left pane of MO). It's the plugin tab I rarely care about - LOOT does a pretty good job at sorting. As abbot Arnaud Amalric qould say (had he played Skyrim) - "activate them all, let LOOT sort them out"

Order within a modGroup cat is alphabetical by default (we manually order mods alphabetically, not the system), but we can arrange then in any way we want to achieve desired asset overrides. We have a modList management GUI with drag & drop for this on the wiki (or one can do it via wikitext source).

Again, i want to distinguish between mod prioritization (left MO pane) versus plugin prioritization (right MO pane). They are completely independent, and our mod lists do not care about plugin order. only asset order matters for the mod list. We assign mods to their proper logical groups, and groups are situated in an order that also maximizes compatibility. If a mod fits into > 1 logical group, we use that which seems most sensible and results in the simplest solution in terms of maintenance and user-side understanding/simplicity. In rare cases where a mod we want to override another is in a preceding mod group, we can always hide assets in the overriding mod.

We expect guide followers to install all mods and prioritize according to the group and within-group order. It works out quite well, as you will see once you follow this or any of our guides. EssArrBee probably used a similar approach but with a hard-coded guide using hard-coded mod meta-info.

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2 hours ago, z929669 said:

If LODGen resources are in a single mod, then it definitely belongs in 03-Resources

Should this be in 03-Resources or 04-Foundation? The Skyrim LE and Skyrim SE guides primarily have the plugins in 03-Resources and the unofficial patches, base mesh/texture mods (including LOD resources) in 04-Foundation.

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27 minutes ago, Greg said:

Should this be in 03-Resources or 04-Foundation? The Skyrim LE and Skyrim SE guides primarily have the plugins in 03-Resources and the unofficial patches, base mesh/texture mods (including LOD resources) in 04-Foundation.

Wherever DynDOLOD Resources mod is, which should be 03-Resources.

EDIT: looks like DynDOLOD Resources in under 04-Foundation after all ... my bad. @TechAngel85 put it there for some reason. That also seems logically accurate, but I think of it more as a 'Resource'.

Sorry for the convoluted post. I thought I was replying to Majorman, but I see it's Greg :P ... hopefully it's a little less convoluted now.

 

@Majorman

Such mods are not directly used in the game "as is" but rather provide resources for other mods. Foundation is for 'big' fundamental stuff that should be overridden by other mod assets (SMIM, landscape overhauls, unofficial patches, etc.). The more plugin-heavy mods are under Gameplay groups, lighting/weather/and patches towards the end of the mod list.

Have a look at the SE 1.0.0 guide for a look at the mods within groups and their order (or the modList) ... ModLists take about 30s to load, since it is really just a page listing 200+ template calls.

We do everything by consensus around here. One staffperson makes a call. If seconded by another, that's all that's needed unless two other staff object.

Which brings me to the next point. If you are creating a guide, you will need a forum staff role so that you have access to the game-guide DEV forums for posting related to achieving consensus on new ideas or things like what mods go into what groups, etc. This topic really needs to transition to the FNV DEV forum.

I'm just waiting on Tech and the others to chime in here, since i need one other staffperson to agree with each of the propositions I have put forth thus far ;)

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DynDOLOD Resources should overwrite the Particle Patch. When placement is questioned, the first thing to do is to check the conflicts.

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14 minutes ago, TechAngel85 said:

DynDOLOD Resources should overwrite the Particle Patch. When placement is questioned, the first thing to do is to check the conflicts.

Yes, but that is in same mod group, so I suspect we put that one under Foundation so that we can order it after Particle Patch. As I stated previously, we first assign mods into proper logical group. If > 1 group applies, then we use that group which allows us to minimize conflict resolution. Then we order in each group alphabetically except where we want to minimize conflict resolution within that group.

Please see other propositions above:

  • Giving Majorman access to Step wiki group
  • Getting Majorman into a forum staff group so that he can access guide DEV forums

I need seconded for both Majorman and @Darklocq and possibly @boycad (if he has seen my post on his guide talk page and is up for creating his guide properly via the infrastructure ... with our assistance of course)

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@z929669 OK, thank for being so patient and thorough in your explanations.

 

I have experience with the STE-style guides, as I have followed STEP 2.10 for Skyrim LE about 2 years ago and I know they are working. I've used it as reference whenever I had doubts about mod grouping, because at least LE mods ring a bell. 

If you think that the classification needs adjustment, I can give you editting rights for the Google doc, so you can adjust it on the fly (just provide me an e-mail). 

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