ACCEPTED Enemy (R)Evolution of Skyrim (by Mangekyoumadara1987)

[TechAngel85]

Discussion topic:
Enemy (R)Evolution of Skyrim by Mangekyoumadara1987
Wiki Link

Accepted for v2.0.0

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This is a mod...more patcher...that helps distribute mod-addon perks, spells, and more to NPCs at game start.

[z929669]

Like the idea. Wonder how it plays with Spell Perks Item Distributor.

[TechAngel85]

SPID is a requirement of this mod. SPID doesn't do anything on it's own. It's a modder's resource that requires configuration using INI files. Someone did make an xEdit script that helps with this process, but you still have to manually create your distributions.

This mod, however, already has a preset for Odin, which is what we'd use it for. Vokrii is not yet covered but it really doesn't need to be.  Most vanilla NPCs already have perks assigned and will benefit from Vokrii's changes as much as the player.

[z929669]

I don't do magic much in Skyrim aside for 'tools' like healing, enemy detection, telekinesis, etc. That said, I have had no issues with this mod in my general testing. Given the description, I think it's a good fit for Step in that it incorporates some vanilla-friendly fixes and essentially enhances immersion/realism. I will place this same note on the new magi-related mods we are testing for Step.

[z929669]

This mod sorts into 'Resources' for me rather than 'Patches' (it doesn't really resolve any conflicts, but it does provide INIs for SPID)

[DoubleYou]

This is not a Patch; however, I disagree that it is a Resource for SPID. Instead, this is a mod that requires SPID to work, similar in how SKSE plugins require SKSE to work.

This mod effectively changes content, specifically gameplay content in the form of giving NPCs "Spells/Perks/Items/Shouts which were previously limited to the player only." Therefore, this mod is more correctly placed in Gameplay - Skills & Perks.

[z929669]

25 minutes ago, DoubleYou said:

This is not a Patch; however, I disagree that it is a Resource for SPID. Instead, this is a mod that requires SPID to work, similar in how SKSE plugins require SKSE to work.

This mod effectively changes content, specifically gameplay content in the form of giving NPCs "Spells/Perks/Items/Shouts which were previously limited to the player only." Therefore, this mod is more correctly placed in Gameplay - Skills & Perks.

I see what you mean about it not being a 'resource' for SPID (or anything). I must disagree on this assessment for Skills & Perks though. This mod does not affect existing content itself. It only does so via SPID > plugin INI, so I do see how it could fit better into Extenders or even Utilities.

This is definitely a "gray-area" mod though, and I ultimately can rationalize it being in any of these MGs besides Patches.

[DoubleYou]

3 hours ago, z929669 said:

I see what you mean about it not being a 'resource' for SPID (or anything). I must disagree on this assessment for Skills & Perks though. This mod does not affect existing content itself. It only does so via SPID > plugin INI, so I do see how it could fit better into Extenders or even Utilities.

This is definitely a "gray-area" mod though, and I ultimately can rationalize it being in any of these MGs besides Patches.

How can you say it "does not affect existing content itself"? Just because it requires SPID to work doesn't negate what it does. Skyrim Skill Uncapper does not work without SKSE in the same way that this mod does not work without SPID. The only difference is that Skyrim Skill Uncapper uses a dll and this mod uses INI files to implement the changes.

It is definitely not an Extender. It does not expand functionality in any way, shape, or form. That is what SPID does.

I don't see this as gray in any way. It simply is a mod that utilizes a new and improved method of modding that we need to get used too. The equivalent plugin method we are all used to would be an esp attaching itself to each and every NPC in the game, adding the spells/perks/items/shouts to the NPC's skillset. Except that would require endless patches to be made. This is the beauty of providing it via SPID.

[Greg]

I think this one falls into the same category as Odin Spells for NPCs and Vokrii Perks for NPCs. Both are basically INI files for SPID and both mod topics have the Gameplay - Skills and Perks tags.

[z929669]

1 hour ago, DoubleYou said:

How can you say it "does not affect existing content itself"? Just because it requires SPID to work doesn't negate what it does. Skyrim Skill Uncapper does not work without SKSE in the same way that this mod does not work without SPID. The only difference is that Skyrim Skill Uncapper uses a dll and this mod uses INI files to implement the changes.

It is definitely not an Extender. It does not expand functionality in any way, shape, or form. That is what SPID does.

I don't see this as gray in any way. It simply is a mod that utilizes a new and improved method of modding that we need to get used too. The equivalent plugin method we are all used to would be an esp attaching itself to each and every NPC in the game, adding the spells/perks/items/shouts to the NPC's skillset. Except that would require endless patches to be made. This is the beauty of providing it via SPID.

Because it doesn't.

It uses SKSE to 'script' content alterations. An INI only adjusts settings that already exist, so that's a fairly big difference. Skill uncapper is altering mechanics (adding a new dial, or changing a dial), while SPID is tuning an existing dial.

INI settings are nothing like plugins or scripts IMO. I do agree it is much more elegant than plugin edits. It's a gray area simply because we don't really have a MG that it fits into, so need to define one. Maybe your assessment is correct in that the "end result" is what matters, but that changes a lot.

1 hour ago, Greg said:

I think this one falls into the same category as Odin Spells for NPCs and Vokrii Perks for NPCs. Both are basically INI files for SPID and both mod topics have the Gameplay - Skills and Perks tags.

Good point

[DoubleYou]

49 minutes ago, z929669 said:

Because it doesn't.

It uses SKSE to 'script' content alterations. An INI only adjusts settings that already exist, so that's a fairly big difference. Skill uncapper is altering mechanics (adding a new dial, or changing a dial), while SPID is tuning an existing dial.

INI settings are nothing like plugins or scripts IMO. I do agree it is much more elegant than plugin edits. It's a gray area simply because we don't really have a MG that it fits into, so need to define one. Maybe your assessment is correct in that the "end result" is what matters, but that changes a lot.

Good point

So you agree that if it was a plugin, it would qualify as adding content. The INI file functions exactly like a plugin in this instance. Here are the contents of the one for Odin:

;ODN_Alt_Baleful3_Spell_Web "Web" 
Spell = 0x68E4E~Odin - Skyrim Magic Overhaul.esp|NONE|0x13743,0xE3A5A,0xB3292,0x1F259,0x43597,0x5091E,0xAA0A4,0x1317b,0x1317c,0x13177,0x10f7f9,00013178,0x13179|25|NONE|NONE|15

;ODN_Con_Daedra2_Spell_ConjureClannfear "Conjure Clannfear" 
Spell = 0x8C58C~Odin - Skyrim Magic Overhaul.esp|NONE|0x13743,0xE3A5A,0xB3292,0x1F259,0x43597,0x5091E,0xAA0A4,0x1317b,0x1317c,0x13177,0x10f7f9,00013178,0x13179|15/40|NONE|NONE|15

;ODN_Con_Daedra4_Spell_ConjureXivilaiHoundmaster "Conjure Houndmaster" 
Spell = 0x967B9~Odin - Skyrim Magic Overhaul.esp|NONE|0x13743,0xE3A5A,0xB3292,0x1F259,0x43597,0x5091E,0xAA0A4,0x1317b,0x1317c,0x13177,0x10f7f9,00013178,0x13179|40|NONE|NONE|25

;ODN_Des_Fire3_Spell_Firehand "Firehand"
Spell = 0xA304F~Odin - Skyrim Magic Overhaul.esp|NONE|0x13743,0x1317a,0xe3a71,0xB3292,0xAA0A4,0x43597,0x04034FBC,0x1F259,0x13177,0x10f7f9,00013178,0x43599|15/40|NONE|NONE|15

;ODN_Des_Shock4_Spell_Shockbloom "Shockbloom"
Spell = 0xDD699~Odin - Skyrim Magic Overhaul.esp|NONE|0x13743,0x1317a,0xe3a71,0x13177,0x10f7f9,00013178,0x1317b,0x1317c,0x1ce1c,0xad237,0x27242,0x46281,0x2EB13,0x02003376,0x020183A5,0x020083A2,0x1F259,0xE3A4A,0x43597,0xAA0A4,0x131F7|40|NONE|NONE|25

;ODN_Res_Poison4_Spell_ToxicCloud "Toxic Cloud"
Spell = 0x47C86~Odin - Skyrim Magic Overhaul.esp|NONE|0x13740,0xBC09E,0x04034FBC,0x2997E,0x43599,0x0402929A,0x1BDB3|40|NONE|NONE|25

A traditional INI file only allows the ability to edit a singular setting once. You wouldn't be able to edit "Spell" twice, or in this case, limitless times. SPID has this setup so that in order to add a spell record, you add another line with a spell, and you mark the relevant formids from the plugins to be copied at runtime by SPID. This is NOT changing an INI setting. It is modifying NPCs exactly the same way an esp plugin would, without the inherent incompatibilities. It is most definitely adding content, and is a Gameplay - Skills & Perks mod exactly the same way as Vokrii Perks for NPCs and Odin Spells for NPCs.

In short, the INI file extension is a deception that is confusing you.

On another note, we should probably not be using the Odin INI from this mod if using Odin Spells for NPCs, as they both affect the same spells.

[z929669]

2 hours ago, DoubleYou said:

So you agree that if it was a plugin, it would qualify as adding content. The INI file functions exactly like a plugin in this instance. Here are the contents of the one for Odin:

;ODN_Alt_Baleful3_Spell_Web "Web" 
Spell = 0x68E4E~Odin - Skyrim Magic Overhaul.esp|NONE|0x13743,0xE3A5A,0xB3292,0x1F259,0x43597,0x5091E,0xAA0A4,0x1317b,0x1317c,0x13177,0x10f7f9,00013178,0x13179|25|NONE|NONE|15

;ODN_Con_Daedra2_Spell_ConjureClannfear "Conjure Clannfear" 
Spell = 0x8C58C~Odin - Skyrim Magic Overhaul.esp|NONE|0x13743,0xE3A5A,0xB3292,0x1F259,0x43597,0x5091E,0xAA0A4,0x1317b,0x1317c,0x13177,0x10f7f9,00013178,0x13179|15/40|NONE|NONE|15

;ODN_Con_Daedra4_Spell_ConjureXivilaiHoundmaster "Conjure Houndmaster" 
Spell = 0x967B9~Odin - Skyrim Magic Overhaul.esp|NONE|0x13743,0xE3A5A,0xB3292,0x1F259,0x43597,0x5091E,0xAA0A4,0x1317b,0x1317c,0x13177,0x10f7f9,00013178,0x13179|40|NONE|NONE|25

;ODN_Des_Fire3_Spell_Firehand "Firehand"
Spell = 0xA304F~Odin - Skyrim Magic Overhaul.esp|NONE|0x13743,0x1317a,0xe3a71,0xB3292,0xAA0A4,0x43597,0x04034FBC,0x1F259,0x13177,0x10f7f9,00013178,0x43599|15/40|NONE|NONE|15

;ODN_Des_Shock4_Spell_Shockbloom "Shockbloom"
Spell = 0xDD699~Odin - Skyrim Magic Overhaul.esp|NONE|0x13743,0x1317a,0xe3a71,0x13177,0x10f7f9,00013178,0x1317b,0x1317c,0x1ce1c,0xad237,0x27242,0x46281,0x2EB13,0x02003376,0x020183A5,0x020083A2,0x1F259,0xE3A4A,0x43597,0xAA0A4,0x131F7|40|NONE|NONE|25

;ODN_Res_Poison4_Spell_ToxicCloud "Toxic Cloud"
Spell = 0x47C86~Odin - Skyrim Magic Overhaul.esp|NONE|0x13740,0xBC09E,0x04034FBC,0x2997E,0x43599,0x0402929A,0x1BDB3|40|NONE|NONE|25

A traditional INI file only allows the ability to edit a singular setting once. You wouldn't be able to edit "Spell" twice, or in this case, limitless times. SPID has this setup so that in order to add a spell record, you add another line with a spell, and you mark the relevant formids from the plugins to be copied at runtime by SPID. This is NOT changing an INI setting. It is modifying NPCs exactly the same way an esp plugin would, without the inherent incompatibilities. It is most definitely adding content, and is a Gameplay - Skills & Perks mod exactly the same way as Vokrii Perks for NPCs and Odin Spells for NPCs.

In short, the INI file extension is a deception that is confusing you.

On another note, we should probably not be using the Odin INI from this mod if using Odin Spells for NPCs, as they both affect the same spells.

Yes, I was assuming 'INI' in the traditional sense for altering existing settings. Now i see what you mean.

So given all of this and those pesky stragglers I have mentioned for reclassification, I am only asking if we want to reconsider some of the assigned ModGroups. If not, that's fine, but may as well be resolute.

If Odin Spells for NPCs is redundant, I agree we should not use it. What about Vokrii Perks for NPCs?

[DoubleYou]

2 hours ago, z929669 said:

Yes, I was assuming 'INI' in the traditional sense for altering existing settings. Now i see what you mean.

So given all of this and those pesky stragglers I have mentioned for reclassification, I am only asking if we want to reconsider some of the assigned ModGroups. If not, that's fine, but may as well be resolute.

If Odin Spells for NPCs is redundant, I agree we should not use it. What about Vokrii Perks for NPCs?

Odin Spells for NPCs provides more of the spells than this mod, so it is this mod's patch for Odin that is in question. Vokrii Perks for NPCs stands on its own.

[Greg]

Enemy (R)evolutions of Skyrim and Odin Spells for NPCs both use SPID to distribute spells to NPCs, but I Odin Spells for NPCs distributes a larger set of spells than the other. I see Enemy (R)evolutions of Skyim has a soft requirement for Enhanced Atronachs - With Levelling and Luminosity for changes to apply to atronachs. I think we should pick one of these mods to include in the guide.

[z929669]

42 minutes ago, Greg said:

Enemy (R)evolutions of Skyrim and Odin Spells for NPCs both use SPID to distribute spells to NPCs, but I Odin Spells for NPCs distributes a larger set of spells than the other. I see Enemy (R)evolutions of Skyim has a soft requirement for Enhanced Atronachs - With Levelling and Luminosity for changes to apply to atronachs. I think we should pick one of these mods to include in the guide.

Feel free to add mod topics for those that you think apply. Just copy source from one of the existing and tag with TESTING and the 2.0.0 tag so we can easily find them.

So are we switching this one to MG Skills & Perks or Extenders?