Official STEP Lighting Solution

[z929669]

I may not be the best person to contribute to this discussion though' date=' since I loathe the vanilla lighting and its horrible ambient glows.  Nothing that sticks close to vanilla is likely to gladden my heart.[/quote']

I agree with this and will go out on a limb to say that this is the reason most people use lighting mods. Not to say that Z's rules aren't a valiant effort but I would say with those rules and his more recent explanation' date=' he's only targeting a very small percentage of the users and the reason they use lighting mods. Most people want a change from vanilla, not an "enhanced vanilla". They're either looking for something more fantasy like or more realistic. I'm going with RLO because it doesn't add or remove lighting sources (candle horns, candles, lanterns, etc), it just simply changes the lighting from the vanilla sources to something that is more realistic and in-depth. I don't see anything "fantasy like" about the vanilla lighting and when comparing textures and mods we're always talking about realistic this and realistic that. I don't think we should change that view just for the sake of lighting.[/quote']

s4n is grabbing screens, so we may want to defer the conversation until then, but I have to say that I think vanilla lighting is not at all bad, but rather it is often too limited, and the ambient light at night and in dungeons is too strong.

 

EL&FX specifically aims to 'fix' light sources and other physical aspects of the light, adding to ambiance.

 

RLO on the other hand aims for lighting realism, strictly with 'fixes' in addition to this. It also eliminates many light sources, which is a bit disappointing.

 

The combination of the two is very nice, as it brings RLO shadows, which are great, but keeps the EL&FX lighting, which I think is more true to vanilla.

 

STEP clearly mandates the glorification of the appearance of vanilla Skyrim, so the STEP lighting solution should adhere to this mandate just as every texture mod we choose attempts only to correct and enhance vanilla Skyrim, not change it.

 

We will introduce lighting Packs later, but the Core STEP lighting solution should be an enhancement of vanilla in accordance to the STEP Mandate. Otherwise, we corrupt the foundation, which fails to honor the fundamental artistry of the game, which IMO is really quite excellent and classically TES in its own right. It would be like tarnishing a brand.

 

Alternative lighting systems will be in STEP "expanded", but I say let's think about core STEP for now and assume that the core STEP user is new to the game and allow the original artistry to shine through to create an accurate impression of the game. Re-read the Mandate ;)

 

EDIT: and they are not "z's" rules, they are the rules laid out many moons ago by the group and originally asserted by TC ....

[TechAngel85]

I may not be the best person to contribute to this discussion though' date=' since I loathe the vanilla lighting and its horrible ambient glows.  Nothing that sticks close to vanilla is likely to gladden my heart.[/quote']

I agree with this and will go out on a limb to say that this is the reason most people use lighting mods. Not to say that Z's rules aren't a valiant effort but I would say with those rules and his more recent explanation' date=' he's only targeting a very small percentage of the users and the reason they use lighting mods. Most people want a change from vanilla, not an "enhanced vanilla". They're either looking for something more fantasy like or more realistic. I'm going with RLO because it doesn't add or remove lighting sources (candle horns, candles, lanterns, etc), it just simply changes the lighting from the vanilla sources to something that is more realistic and in-depth. I don't see anything "fantasy like" about the vanilla lighting and when comparing textures and mods we're always talking about realistic this and realistic that. I don't think we should change that view just for the sake of lighting.[/quote']

s4n is grabbing screens, so we may want to defer the conversation until then, but I have to say that I think vanilla lighting is not at all bad, but rather it is often too limited, and the ambient light at night and in dungeons is too strong.

 

EL&FX specifically aims to 'fix' light sources and other physical aspects of the light, adding to ambiance.

 

RLO on the other hand aims for lighting realism, strictly with 'fixes' in addition to this. It also eliminates many light sources, which is a bit disappointing.

 

The combination of the two is very nice, as it brings RLO shadows, which are great, but keeps the EL&FX lighting, which I think is more true to vanilla.

 

STEP clearly mandates the glorification of the appearance of vanilla Skyrim, so the STEP lighting solution should adhere to this mandate just as every texture mod we choose attempts only to correct and enhance vanilla Skyrim, not change it.

 

We will introduce lighting Packs later, but the Core STEP lighting solution should be an enhancement of vanilla in accordance to the STEP Mandate. Otherwise, we corrupt the foundation, which fails to honor the fundamental artistry of the game, which IMO is really quite excellent and classically TES in its own right. It would be like tarnishing a brand.

 

Alternative lighting systems will be in STEP "expanded", but I say let's think about core STEP for now and assume that the core STEP user is new to the game and allow the original artistry to shine through to create an accurate impression of the game. Re-read the Mandate ;)

 

EDIT: and they are not "z's" rules, they are the rules laid out many moons ago by the group and originally asserted by TC ....

Fair enough, but I think (at least from what I've seen) you have EL&FX and RLO backwards. In the areas I've been in (most major towns and inns) I have not seen RLO remove any vanilla lights or eliminate light sources. EL&FX does elimination light souces however or adds them and it's this that I don't really agree with. If RLO does it too, I haven't seen it yet.

 

 

In all honesty, RLO does some things better than EL&FX and vise versa. Personally, from all the shots I've seen RLO is still the winner as many of EL&FX edits are too bright/blue/white even for an Enhanced Vanilla. However, on the other side of that coin, one could say that many of RLO edits are too dark/yellow. Though I do want to point out with RLO being modular and their efforts to stay lore friendly it seems like it would be much more compatible with other mods.

[rpsgc]

It's your choice but I stand firmly behind RLO. EL&FX removing and moving physical objects is just not acceptable to me (and bad for compatibility). I'd rather use Relighting Skyrim or nothing at all.

[toshaka]

I agree with RLO too.

Z does have some points tho.

Tech, RLO does remove some, look at dragonsreach, the fires at the stairs are removed, but he did that for a reason (but thats only a few compared to EL&FX).

Cos of the lighting limitation of the engine (in vanilla those didnt even had light sources, so it looked fake anyway).

But overall RLO has almost the same brightness inside buildings as vanilla, sometimes even more or a bit less, depending on the amount of lights.

[z929669]

@all contenders

 

Review the comparison screenshots of RLO/EL&FX/both. It is pretty obvious from those screens that RLO stands in stark contrast to vanilla lighting. I think the combined is best, but EL&FX is clearly more true to the fantasy lighting of vanilla.

 

S4N's screens are coming to the wiki shortly, so we will have much more food for thought (and his in-depth analysis, which is always enormously helpful)

 

Also read the RLO FAQs. There is much yet to do for that mod, and it is nowhere near complete (probably released a bit too early IMO). RLO does eliminate many light sources, and I think that it is pretty noticeable. Also, shadow flickering and movement is a bit too pronounced I think.

[Neovalen]

... and this is why there should be no "official" lighting mod and it should be left as packs.

 

All lighting mods by definition deviate from vanilla. The closest (read: still has some additions) to vanilla would have to be relighting Sky rim at this point but as I stated... leave it as packs.

[z929669]

Respectfully disagree ;)

 

Vanilla lighting does have some pretty stark 'mistakes' that are not stylistic in any way (but rather due to laziness and inattention to detail). Light sources are one thing that needs 'fixing'.

 

I am thinking that Relighting Skyrim or EL&FX may be closer to the 'fixes' that should be adopted as part of Core STEP; however, it may be that none of the lighting solutions are comprehensive or consistent enough. I suppose that is what we are assessing.

[TechAngel85]

@all contenders

 

Review the comparison screenshots of RLO/EL&FX/both. It is pretty obvious from those screens that RLO stands in stark contrast to vanilla lighting. I think the combined is best, but EL&FX is clearly more true to the fantasy lighting of vanilla.

 

S4N's screens are coming to the wiki shortly, so we will have much more food for thought (and his in-depth analysis, which is always enormously helpful)

 

Also read the RLO FAQs. There is much yet to do for that mod, and it is nowhere near complete (probably released a bit too early IMO). RLO does eliminate many light sources, and I think that it is pretty noticeable. Also, shadow flickering and movement is a bit too pronounced I think.

I looked at those before I posted above. The majority of the community seems to be voting for RLO and against EL&FX which you seem to be totally vise versa of. I'll await for S4N's screens before making a final decision. I would like to see some real comparisons to vanilla as it's been a while since I've tested EL&FX.

 

I'm just the opposite. I don't notice any of RLO light source eliminations but do notice EL&FX eliminations....probably because as toshaka pointed out, they're fewer eliminations in RLO than that of EL&FX. I also think the shadow flicking is a little too pronounced, but I still don't notice it unless I'm standing around looking for it...at least RLO has some shadow play from fires.

[z929669]

The majority of the community seems to be voting for RLO and against EL&FX which you seem to be totally vise versa of. I'll await for S4N's screens before making a final decision. I would like to see some real comparisons to vanilla as it's been a while since I've tested EL&FX.

 

Only about 4 people have stated an opinion ... and I suspect there is a lot of inflated status attributed to RLO at present because of the anticipation of that release.

 

There are actually more light sources in EL&FX, since that mod uses scripting to get around engine restrictions to the number of light sources. RLO explicitly does not do this.

 

I personally will probably end up using RLO when it evolves, but core step needs just the most comprehensive and vanilla-aesthetic lighting 'fix' ... not lighting 'overhaul'. Perhaps lighting should not be addressed in this release, but I have seen several comments about STEP missing this solution (and Packs take a while to develop and even longer to properly integrate into STEP)

[toshaka]

The shadow flicking what RLO does is going to be less sydney said somewhere in the comments.

With the next or so release if I am correct.

And I agree with RLO being released a bit too soon, but this way he also has ware more people finding problems and bugs ;)

Also a way to see on much more machines what gives problems and what not.

Still my choice stays with RLO :)

 

And like tech say, I like the shadows from fire places

[EssArrBee]

ELnF has been giving me some weird lighting. The Best example I can think of is in the Solitude apothecary, when standing at the counter staring at the merchant one of the light sources appears to be 'off' and then I turn a bit to the left and the light source turns 'on'. There are few other places, mostly dungeons, with these type of effects I've noticed, I'll try to get some screens posted when I'm back home.

[MontyMM]

Also read the RLO FAQs. There is much yet to do for that mod, and it is nowhere near complete (probably released a bit too early IMO).

 

This.  I've found it a bit dissapointing.  These guys are good at what they do, but it needs to mature a fair bit.

[TechAngel85]

There are actually more light sources in EL&FX, since that mod uses scripting to get around engine restrictions to the number of light sources. RLO explicitly does not do this.

 

This is also why I have chosen RLO. RLO sticks to the game engine. EL&FX is using scripts in some cases...yet another point of potential incompatibility and conflicts. STEP 2.2.1 is already running so many scripts that my console is slower than molasses.

[MontyMM]

There are actually more light sources in EL&FX' date=' since that mod uses scripting to get around engine restrictions to the number of light sources. RLO explicitly does not do this.[/quote']

This is also why I have chosen RLO. RLO sticks to the game engine. EL&FX is using scripts in some cases...yet another point of potential incompatibility and conflicts. STEP 2.2.1 is already running so many scripts that my console is slower than molasses.

But since we tolerate scripts for so many other elements, I don't see why the ones to correct the major limitation on light sources should be considered villains, unless we have evidence of specific problems.  IMHO, if the script load demanded sacrifices, this would take priority over many other things.  Likewise, multiple cell edits aren't necessarily an evil, and again it's a question of priority if there's conflicts.

[Kelmych]

Personally I agree more with Tech and MontyMM about the purpose of the lighting mods. I can understand why Bethesda chose their vanilla lighting to provide at least a minimum (and unrealistic) level of lighting everywhere vs. having some areas that are so dark that casual gamers wouldn't use the game. I'm not adverse to fantasy - hey, I'm playing a computer game about a non-existent place - but I'd still like to see lighting that is generally a bit more realistic, especially in the total dynamic range of light, while still making the game fun. I'd like to see some fairly realistic flickering and shadow effects that help immersion. That's as far as my "requirements" go, however. I find the discussions about the strong and weak points of various lighting mods very useful to help decide what I should use; I also doubt that others will make the exact same choices I do.